CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

[Longshot]

I'm just seeking a clarification on VCRA here because I'm starting to think my knowledge has some holes.

To my mind:

• Selling a RIF to an under 18 is illegal
• Selling a RIF to an over 18 is illegal (though you have a defence to this if you believe the buyer to be a 'regular airsoft skirmisher,' among other things, and can therefore sell the RIF without too much fear of prosecution, providing you have done the necessary checks)

Now I'm pretty sure it's illegal for an under 18 to attempt to buy a RIF, or indeed to buy one, but what I want to know is where (specifically) the law stands on over 18s buying or attempting to buy a RIF and on the ownership of RIFs (in terms of general ownership, not the standard 'don't wave it out your window shouting "brap brap!" at passers by stuff).

Thanks in advance.

[loki7491]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

It is an offence for under 18s to buy and for you to sell to under 18s.

Section 40 of the VCRA
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/40

It is an offence to sell to anybody without a valid defence as defined in sections 36 and 37 of the VCRA
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

If an under 18 is gifted a RIF from a legal parent or guardian that is okay in terms of ownership at least as far as the VCRA is concerned.

With air-guns the child under the age of 14 is not allowed to own one. Between 14 and 17 must be supervised with one and 18 or over are classed as responsible for their own actions. I have not looked into it regarding RIFs as i have not had any need to, but i would suggest that is a good place to start assuming the rules regarding RIFs are not stricter tha that of air guns.

[BAMF]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?



This thread will in no way descend into one of the all-too-familiar Internet fights popularised by the VCRA/UKARA boards...FACT!

[Longshot]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

I know, I know.

But Loki has just repeated what I already feel I know and not actually answered my two main questions (not his fault, it was a well referenced answer!). I know the sale of a RIF has clear legal guidance, but the main things I want to know are:

1, Is it ever illegal for an over 18 to buy or attempt to buy a RIF?
2, is it ever illegal for an over 18 to own a RIF?

[sean20012]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

my opinion is answer to one is yes if you don't have a defence, answer to two is maybe if you was a regular skirmisher then stopped its fine you can keep it but if it was a IF ie two tone and then you made it a RIF then yes it is as you have then manufactured a RIF.

thanks sean

[Longshot]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

Thanks Sean, buy I'm not after opinions (don't mean to sound like a dick there!). I want to know if there is anywhere in law that says it is a crime for an over 18 to buy a RIF (not sell or manufacture one). I would imagine if it was illegal it would be in the VCRA, but I can't see it.

From what I can see there are laws against over 18s selling, importing or manufacturing a RIF, but nothing that says you are breaking any law by buying one if you are over 18, no matter what your circumstances are.

[Batcow]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

Surely it's not illegal for an over 18 to attempt to buy a RIF considering it's not illegal to own one(defense or not) the offence is committed by the seller.

In short, no and no.

I have nothing to back this up with though just what the voices in my head tell me.

*edit*

Started typing that before you replied, i stand by what i said though.

[sean20012]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

no problem should of said interpretation, but no your right but I think its a case of till its brought to court there wont be a definite black and white answer.

thanks sean

[RedHawk]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

Surely it's not illegal for an over 18 to attempt to buy a RIF considering it's not illegal to own one(defense or not) the offence is committed by the seller.

Purchasing a RIF is illegal even if you have a defence. The VCRA simply states that you can use your defence against being prosecuted. This doesn't give you an exemption from being arrested though. As I explained in another thread, the reason we aren't all arrested is it would be a huge waste of time and resources to attempt to prosecute every one who did purchase/import/sell/manufacture. To skip the process of being arrested and sent to court, proving you have a defence against prosecution simply cuts out the middle man and shows that being taken to court would be pointless due to said defence. Remember, what is in the Public's interest is important. I don't think it's in any one's interest to arrest every person with a valid defence. And that's not just airsofters either. Look at the other people who are allowed to purchase them with a defence.

To back it up, section 36:

(1)
A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a)
he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;
(b)
he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;
(c)
he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or
(d)
he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

And in section 37:

(1)
It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in subsection (2).

It doesn't mention a defence is exemption from being arrested. Therefore, illegal to do so.

Ownership however, there is nothing in the VCRA which refers to owning a RIF. The only restrictions are on the above, so it really is down to the officer and the situation you are in to whether or not you are arrested for having a RIF on your person.

[Longshot]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

Nowhere in that lot does it say it is illegal to buy an RIF though Redhawk, this is what's confusing me. Section 36 (and everything else I can see) makes reference to selling, importing and manufacturing, but never seems to mention buying. You say it does (and the amount of 'likes' seem to suggest others agree) but nowhere in your quote of the VCRA does that seem to be the case.

Show me where it says that it is illegal for an over 18 to buy a RIF. The word "buy," "purchase," "procure," etc. never seems to come up.

The defence element is a defence against prosecution for the seller, even if the seller must seek evidence for the defence from the buyer. If I sell to someone who cannot prove any of the defence criteria for me I have clearly broken the law as section 36 lays out, but I cannot see what law the buyer has broken.

(I'm really not trying to just be awkward here by the way, I just literally cannot see the legal situation laid out anywhere regarding buyers).

[N_Scooby]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

I know, I know.

But Loki has just repeated what I already feel I know and not actually answered my two main questions (not his fault, it was a well referenced answer!). I know the sale of a RIF has clear legal guidance, but the main things I want to know are:

1, Is it ever illegal for an over 18 to buy or attempt to buy a RIF?
2, is it ever illegal for an over 18 to own a RIF?

My answers, as I see the law currently (the one with so many loopholes you could drive a truck through it):

1) No it is not illegal for an over 18 year old to buy or attept to buy a RIF. The responsibilty for the sale is placed firmly on the seller. It is up to them to carry out the checks that they are allowed to sell the gun to the buyer. If the buyer has no valid defence and the seller refuses the sale then no offence has been commited. If the buyer has no valid defence but the sale goes through, then it is the seller that has commited the offence, not the buyer.

2) It is not illegal for anyone over 18 to own a RIF unless a court has banned them from owning / using one. I believe people who are released from prison having served firearms offences are banned from owning / using anything that looks like a firearm for a certain length of time after release.

It is not illegal to own a RIF, you just need to justify why you have it IF you are caught with it. If you keep a RIF in the cupboard or as a wall hanger the chances of you ever needing to justify it are very slim.

[RedHawk]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

Nowhere in that lot does it say it is illegal to buy an RIF though Redhawk, this is what's confusing me. Section 36 (and everything else I can see) makes reference to selling, importing and manufacturing, but never seems to mention buying. You say it does (and the amount of 'likes' seem to suggest others agree) but nowhere in your quote of the VCRA does that seem to be the case.

Show me where it says that it is illegal for an over 18 to buy a RIF. The word "buy," "purchase," "procure," etc. never seems to come up.

The defence element is a defence against prosecution for the seller, even if the seller must seek evidence for the defence from the buyer. If I sell to someone who cannot prove any of the defence criteria for me I have clearly broken the law as section 36 lays out, but I cannot see what law the buyer has broken.

(I'm really not trying to just be awkward here by the way, I just literally cannot see the legal situation laid out anywhere regarding buyers).

Sorry - I should've mentioned that. Purchase and sale should really be one classification but it is the responsibility of the person selling the RIF to ensure that whoever he/she sells to has a legitimate reason for use (such as airsoft skirmishers, reenactments etc.). This is because it's easier to stop one individual or company selling RIFs to those who shouldn't have them then it is to chase down both participants of the sale. Hence the whole UKARA b*llocks and people believe it as law. UKARA is simply there to protect the airsoft companies against people trying to buy RIFs either out of ignorance of the law or fraudulently.

It's a similar situation to banned knives in the UK. They're not illegal to own but are to sell. However, walking around with ANY knife is plain stupidity legal or not.

[Batcow]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

So basically what I said is correct then, well done for going over it more times in more detail though.

[Longshot]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

I think this has got as far as it needs to go, and has ended up where I had a feeling it might (though I wanted to be sure because I've heard otherwise for a long time and of late): there is no specific law against buying for over 18s.

I'm really have tempted to delete this thread actually because, as common knowledge, that's quite dangerous (or at the very least annoying). There really is no incentive for anyone to not 'have a go' at buying a RIF even if they don't have a valid reason to do so. And note that here I say 'reason' too, not defence, since the terminology that we bandy about so much of 'a defence to buy' or a 'buyer's defence' is actually entirely wrong, since the buyer is breaking no law and therefore in no circumstances needs any defence against possible prosecution.

In a scenario where I'm selling a RIF I shouldn't actually be saying to a potential buyer: "do you have a defence" but actually: "can you help give me a defence." I know it might seem a little pedantic (and rest assured I don't feel the need to flame every thread that has someone saying "he'll need a defence" or similar!) but I suppose it is important to know nonetheless.

Thanks to everyone for clearing that up. Now, don't tell anyone...

[ScoobySnacks]

Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

Why on earth would that knowledge be dangerous?

People are all too ready to accept regulation and legislation that reduces their rights for no good reason!

The VCRA, where it relates to firearms/RIF/IF is meaningless and achieves nothing in the way of improving public safety. There is plenty of well established law which creates an offence of using a firearm to threaten or for any kind of act like that. The VCRA just limits what law abiding people can do, whilst doing nothing to reduce the prevalence of real and imitation firearms in the hands of those inclined to do illegal things with them!

It is perfectly legal to purchase a RIF if you are over 18 years of age. It is perfectly legal to own a RIF at any age, as long as you don't carry it in public without good reason, or use it to threaten people.