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CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

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  • #16
    Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

    Originally posted by ScoobySnacks View Post
    Why on earth would that knowledge be dangerous?...
    I do see your points, but I don't mean dangerous to individuals so much as dangerous to the sport of airsoft, which is already on precarious footing.

    One of the reasons many idiots who could potentially do stupid things with a RIF (and get the whole lot banned for all of us) don't get their hands on a RIF and do just that is the perception that you need a defence to buy one and that circumventing this is illegal. That's a false belief, as this thread shows, but one that keeps our sport a little safer.
    102nd Chairborne Rangers - "Intelluctus VCRAus recte"

    Keyboard Commando - "He who argues until the other person gives up and goes away wins"

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    • #17
      Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

      Sorry but I disagree.

      Anyone who thinks that allowing more and more controls makes our sport safer in any way is sadly deluded. You just need to look at the gradual erosion of rights related to real firearms to see that, unless we stand up robustly for our rights, the government will slowly erode them until we have to jump through so many hoops that the sport will suffer massively.

      As I said above, there are sufficient, well written and potent laws which deal with misuse of firearms, including imitations, that any further controls on them is only going to affect those who use them legitimately. Look at handguns. Has the handgun ban reduced their use in violent crime?

      No, it hasn't. In fact violent crime involving handguns has increased many fold since handguns were banned post Dunblane.

      If you criminalise guns, then you just ensure that only criminals have guns. Do you think, when the handgun came in (bearing in mind that we already had stringent controls on ownership, and some of the most onerous licensing in the world) that all those criminals who had handguns suddenly thought "oh, they're illegal, I'd better hand them in"? Of course they didn't. The ban made no difference to them.

      So, knowing the law is the only way to protect ourselves and our sport. Teaching people about the law is essential!

      If we, as airsofters, can stand together and say "no, we will NOT allow you to take our guns away from us" then it will be difficult for them to do so. If we understand the law and make sure we stay inside it.

      However, if we try to hide the law, try to prevent people from being educated about the legitimate ways to purchase and use airsoft guns, then we have no defense against those who wish to see our sport banned!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

        I disagree (partially) with your disagreement.

        I think you're being a little deluded about how the law operates to be honest. Criminalising handguns did not "just ensure that only criminals have guns" it limited the amount of people who could become gun criminals and the amount of guns available to criminals. Not having guns in general circulation makes it harder for people to get their hands on them and also makes it harder for people who 'lose it' to turn from non-violent responsible gun owners into potent armed killing machines. Was the banning on handguns a reactive policy? Yes. But did it have a proactive effect? Yes. It wasn't designed to make criminals hand in their guns but to ensure that guns weren't used for criminality in the future. Gun crime will rise because criminality will rise, and you can't stop hardened criminals from committing crime, but you can make it harder for them to have the tools to do so and at the same time limit the potential damage that can be done by people who aren't criminals but who make bad decisions or just 'go crazy.'

        Theoretically the same could be said of the current rules around airsoft gun owenership (which I actually feel are quite reasonable). It's not that everyone was out there using RIFs to rob banks, or even that you can stop hardened criminals creating/buying RIFs for that purpose, but by making it hard for any idiot to have them you limit the potential damage that they could do after one mad/bad decision.

        'Knowing the law' sounds all well and good, but what use is it really when we are such a minority? You can say "if we, as airsofters, can stand together and say "no, we will NOT allow you to take our guns away from us" then it will be difficult for them to do so" but you know this isn't true, because you know it didn't help the handgun owners when they had their guns taken away. It doesn't make any difference because the media, and the reactive political policy makers, will trump our minority voice. Therefore the safest way for us to keep our sport is actually to remain unnoticed by the media, and in my opinion this is being achieved by limiting the amount of people who can have a RIF to those who we know are dedicated to having one for the pursuit of the sport rather than just wanting what they saw on TV/Xbox so they can kneecap their mates and chase them down the street and through the playground with it.

        Lastly, my reason for suggesting that this particular piece of law is best kept under wraps is that it is a bad one. It would, in my opinion, be safer to say to people outside the airsoft community: "you have no need to have a RIF, if you try and get one you are breaking the law." Now this seems to currently be perceived as the case, but it legally isn't so. What the law actually says is, essentially: "you have no need to have a RIF, but if you want one give it a shot. At no point are you ever breaking a law and you can basically just keep trying until you get one, even though you have no reason to have one." Personally, I'd rather keep that quiet and maintain the status quo, since if the media types believe the first version, as mostly everyone else does, they can at least think: 'it's illegal these days to get realistic looking guns. No story.' If the second one comes to light the story could easily be: 'Anyone can legally buy a realistic looking gun!' That, I feel, would further endanger our sport, whether we 'know the law' and 'stand together' and shout about it or not.
        102nd Chairborne Rangers - "Intelluctus VCRAus recte"

        Keyboard Commando - "He who argues until the other person gives up and goes away wins"

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        • #19
          Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

          Longshot, whilst I acknowledge some of your points might appear to make sense, actually I still have to disagree with your disagreement to my disagreement (shall we just say we disagree and have done with it?)

          The handgun ban obviously didn't do anything to limit the access of criminals to handguns. The illegal trade in hand guns is alive and well, with guns coming in from all over the place (though mainly the EU, and especially some of the former soviet republics).

          I don't know if you ever held a handgun on FAC. I did, and I can assure you that the guns were hardly in "general circulation". The number of handgun owners was actually quite small, and the restrictions on ownership and use were draconian to say the least.

          Now obviously you can't predict when someone might "flip a switch" and lose it, it is an extraordinarily rare occurrence, albeit incredibly tragic and potent when it does happen.

          There have been three occurrences in the UK in the last 30 years. (I'm talking about legally held firearms here, ignore Moat and Mancunian "gangsters" running around with grenades). The total number of deaths caused is less than are killed on the roads every month, and fewer than are killed with knives in a year.

          Now you might argue this means that access increases the risk, and to a certain extent this is true, however if you look at the number of people who have legal access to guns, and then the number of deaths caused by these people the number of deaths caused by legally held guns is extremely low as a "per person with access" figure.

          Yes, you could argue that this is as a result of our draconian firearms legislation, and to a certain extent again this is probably true. The amount of time, effort and money required as an investment to secure the right to hold a shotgun or firearm is large. This sets the opportunity cost pretty high and means that to legally obtain a firearm you need to be the type of person who is fairly committed to owning such weapons, which in turn usually means that you are unlikely to act in a manner that jeopardizes this hard won privilege.

          The rules on the misuse of firearms is a subject which is firmly dealt with in firearms law. This includes the use of imitations to threaten or cause fear.

          The type of person who is likely to attempt to use a RIF to threaten is hardly the type who is likely to worry that attempting to buy a RIF is illegal.

          I'm afraid the belief that attempting to buy RIF's is illegal makes very little difference. It is illegal for under 18's to attempt to buy alcohol, or cigarettes, but it doesn't stop them trying (certainly didn't stop me).

          You accuse me of delusion regarding the workings of the law. I say that you are far too willing to toe the line, far too credulous that, by ceding to the intrusion of government, all you do is encourage them to make further restrictions.

          As an addendum, I believe that the airsoft community is far stronger than the pistol shooting community ever was. More people play air soft, more people rely on airsoft for their livelihood (perhaps the group with the strongest argument) than ever was the case for pistol owners.

          There will never be a massacre using airsoft guns. It's simply not possible. So given that lack of major rabble rousing event (again not taking anything away from the victims of such abhorrent events) the airsoft community has far more potential to influence than the pistol community, but only if we stand together. If we say "oh we won't do any good, why bother" then we certainly will never have any significant influence. If we stand together, then who knows?

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          • #20
            Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

            Certainly some fair points in there, most notably the fact that we have an incredibly low gun crime 'per person with legal access' in the UK and also the fact that the airsoft community has higher numbers on its side in comparision to the handgun community of the late 1990s (though I'd still question whether even the numbers we currently have could really do enough to stop a law banning the sale of RIFs if, for example, there was a media outcry after some kid got shot by an ARU for brandishing a RIF in public that he found in his 18 year old brother's room - the same brother who the media would no doubt report legally bought the RIF from 'one of the many gun forums on the internet where people just sell these things with no checks by the police'). I should also explain that my use of 'deluded' was just to copy the term you had used previously, but also specifically in reference to the part wherby you ask whether we think criminals gave up their illegal guns when the new laws were introduced, which I think we all know wasn't the intention or even a remotely expected consequence of the laws.

            I think at this point we've slightly digressed from the original issue, however, as most of your last few points, valid though some may be, seem to be about how we should counter any proposed new changes to the sale of RIFs and how laws surrounding real steel gun ownership haven't reduced illegal gun activity, even if they have theoretically prevented a legally armed individual from 'flipping' and using them to kill people. My original issue, however, was around the fact that we should keep the fact that any 18+ individual can legally attempt to buy a RIF slightly quiet, which is what you disagreed with. I still stand by that as I feel it is something like this that could lead to the sort of incident that I've just mentioned above. Obviously there will never be a massacre with airsoft guns, but there doesn't need to be something as extreme as that for the media to demand their ban and for the reactionery government to do just that.

            I honestly feel that we have to deal with the situation we find ourselves in, and right now that is a relatively dangerous time for the sport of airsoft. You say that we need to make people aware of how the law stands, but I'm saying that this could lead to issues because the current law is badly conceived. Consider this scenario (which sadly isn't that unrealistic) occuring on this forum, where a new member (represented here as BillyBoy1995) 'wants a gun' and asks about this on the forum before being answered by well meaning but misguided forum regulars:

            BillyBoy1995: "Hi. I play COD with my mate and he keeps shooting me with an AK and saying my M4 is crap. I told him I'm going to get a M4 BB gun and light him up. Which one should I get?"
            Misguided1: "Shooting your mate is a bad idea. Do you even have a defence?"
            BillyBoy1995: "I'm not bothered! He deserves it lol! What's a defence?"
            Misguided1: "You need to be a regular airsofter with UKARA if you want a realitic looking M4. Otherwise you'll have to get it 51% in a bright colour like blue or green."
            BillyBoy1995: "That's rubbish. I want a proper looking one so I can scare the crap out of my little brother and his mates too."
            Misguided2: "You can't have one. It's illegal."
            Misguided1: "That's right nobody will sell you one. If they do it's illegal and they could get 5 years in prison and so could you if the mods report you."
            BillyBoy1995: "BB guns are stupid."

            False information (even though the people who are saying it don't realise it's false) provided to BillyBoy here is a good thing. It keeps this idiot (hopefully, rather than certainly, I'll admit) from getting his hands on a RIF and doing the sort of things with it that will get RIFs/airsoft in the media and lead to further legislation against us and ultimately a ban against the sport, which I imagine none of us want.

            If I read that thread I would keep quiet, even though I knew what the misguided members were saying was untrue, as I feel that supplying knowledge of the true legal facts here could be dangerous to individuals involved and ultimately to our sport, and that was my original point. What would you do? Because in saying that we should let everyone know the law it looks like after the last post by BillyBoy you may jump in with:

            ScoobySnacks: "Don't listen to them BillyBoy, what they've said is not true. It is not illegal for you to buy or attempt to buy a realistic looking gun."
            BillyBoy1995: "Really? I tried messaging some people who are selling M4s and they said they wouldn't sell to me because it's illegal and I'm breaking the law without a defence. I was ready to give up!"
            ScoobySnacks: "They are wrong. They shouldn't be selling to you, but you are breaking no laws whatsoever by trying."
            BillyBoy1995: "So basically I should just keep messaging people until someone finally sells me one and then I can rinse my mate and scare my brother with it?"
            ScoobySnacks: "That's perfectly legal, yes. Know your rights!"
            BillyBoy1995: "Yey! Lol!"

            Now clearly I'm being very over the top here (and sorry for painting you in a slightly bad light in this scenario ) but whilst this scenario might be a little far fetched (and I really only think it's a very little bit so) I honestly want to know whether you think you would do what I would here and keep quiet about the actual state of the law or do what you said you would earlier (where our intial disagreement began) and give people this knowledge since you feel it isn't dangerous in any way.

            (My apologies for the epic posts, I love a good argument! )
            102nd Chairborne Rangers - "Intelluctus VCRAus recte"

            Keyboard Commando - "He who argues until the other person gives up and goes away wins"

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            • #21
              Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

              Okay so it's like weed! smoking it ain't illegal but buying one is!...My knowledge has vastly improved
              Peace-Cooperation-Security

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              • #22
                Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

                Originally posted by Stevec95 View Post
                Okay so it's like weed! smoking it ain't illegal but buying one is!...My knowledge has vastly improved
                No, it's not like that at all; smoking your RIF ain't illegal and neither is buying one (if you're over 18).
                102nd Chairborne Rangers - "Intelluctus VCRAus recte"

                Keyboard Commando - "He who argues until the other person gives up and goes away wins"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

                  I've never greened out on a RIF

                  Does the Aliens pulse rifle count as a RIF? Can anyone buy one of those?

                  Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

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                  • #24
                    Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

                    Originally posted by RedHawk View Post

                    It's a similar situation to banned knives in the UK. They're not illegal to own but are to sell. However, walking around with ANY knife is plain stupidity legal or not.
                    So you're saying my farther's stupid for carrying a knife? Even though he needs it to cut string as a farmer.



                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    I AM A NOOB ON A MISSION!!!


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                    • #25
                      Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

                      I can't believe this came in handy again.


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                      • #26
                        Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

                        Question the logic of another of these threads, but hey, it is a place of discussion.

                        Main Armoury: CYMA Zhukov AK | G&P M7A1 | PTS Masada AKM

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                        • #27
                          Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

                          I'm pretty sure this thread actually started and was resolved 7 months ago...
                          102nd Chairborne Rangers - "Intelluctus VCRAus recte"

                          Keyboard Commando - "He who argues until the other person gives up and goes away wins"

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                          • #28
                            Re: CLARIFICATION: Is buying or owning a RIF illegal?

                            Indeed it was, Redhawk was on the money

                            I really should buy shares in Dunlop!

                            Originally posted by Nun-Chuck
                            I'm down every games day at EAG buddy just give me a shout and I'll whip it out, can have a squeeze too if you like.
                            Originally posted by deanfirst
                            why not use zeroone's escort service?

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