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Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

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  • Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

    I've been thinking for a long time that ZeroIn has some serious problems that need addressing. I am not bashing the forum, its moderators or its users, but I think it's blatantly obvious that ZeroIn has problems with all three and to pretend otherwise is foolish and counterproductive. This particular bit of constructive criticism has been brought to a head by reading yet another scam thread, and pondering the replies:

    Originally posted by RedHawk View Post
    It's a known fact that this forum is [...] rife with complete morons.
    Originally posted by Lt. Macka View Post
    The sad fact is that this is the only forum I use where scams, complaints and problems with sales are not only common but rife!
    For me these two posts (both made by long-term, contributing users) pretty much sum up the problems I perceive with ZeroIn in general, and transactions on ZeroIn in particular. Unfortunately, ZeroIn seems to attract real bottom-feeder users in a way that none of the other UK-based airsoft forums do, and it is by far and away the worst airsoft forum in the UK - perhaps the worst airsoft forum anywhere - in terms of Classifieds scams. The moderators of this forum have always said that the sheer volume of transactions here results in a proportionally higher number of problems, but I don't agree - I think it's self-evident that ZeroIn's Classifieds harbour a disproportionately high number of problem users and outright scammers. The problems are longstanding and very obvious, but the solutions aren't exactly rocket science either. Rather than just complaining, I thought I would make some suggestions for improving ZeroIn's credibility, legibility and reliability and see what everyone else thought.


    HOW TO STOP ZEROIN'S CLASSIFIEDS SUCKING

    One Frustrated User's Opinion
    1. Require a minimum number of posts (100 or more) and a minimum length of membership (a month or more) before permitting users to browse, or post to, the Classifieds. It is ZeroIn's failure to implement a minimum post requirement that attracts scammers to this forum; scammers look for the path of least resistance and don't want to have to run a multi-month-long con, requiring them to create hundreds of non-spammy posts, over a £50 airsoft shotgun. Classifieds scams could be almost totally eradicated by doing what almost all other airsoft forums do and requiring users be established online before venturing into the Classifieds.
    2. Enforce the existing rules, and let users report breaches of them. ZeroIn has already implemented strict rules about named and dated bits of paper in the required photos, which is a step in the right direction, but these rules are being widely ignored. Of the first ten posts in the 'GBB Rifles & SMG's' [sic] sub-forum, only two are compliant with that requirement - a failure rate of 80%. Worse, there is no 'report post' button to alert moderators, who presumably don't have the time to search through every post themselves. Users should be able to help moderators by flagging noncompliant posts for their attention.
    3. Update the forum rules to reflect the problem. At present ZeroIn recommends that users employ PayPal where possible, but doesn't point out that PayPal specifically excludes IF and RIF transactions from its TOS and therefore that the protection offered by PayPal to users is illusory. There are no alternatives suggested and no possible methods of recourse noted, nor are the importance of key factors of reliability (the length of time a user has been a member, their participation in the forum) brought to users' attention. Both the rules and the accompanying thread omit to mention that ZeroIn's Classifieds are notorious for scams, and as a result an opportunity to warn users to be on their guard is missed.
    4. Require more information from Classifieds users. It would be intelligent for both parties to have each other's real names, physical and e-mail addresses, and telephone numbers in addition to their ZeroIn account names before they start sending money to each other. In fact, given the number of complaints to Lost Souls, it is stupid that users are allowed to transact without that information. ZeroIn members should not be allowed to access the Classifieds unless they have input at least some of those details to their account; when they transact with another user both users should be able to see some of each other's information, and test that they work (e.g. calling the phone number, e-mailing the address) before they start handing over money and guns.

    Those pertain to the Classifieds. There is one, golden, additional request I'd like to make:
    1. Moderate the forums aggressively and transparently. No-one likes the 'no other retailers' rule, but we can understand why you have it. This forum would be a better place if moderators could apply the same aggressive response they have to infringements of that rule to these rules:

      Originally posted by Rampage View Post
      Please try to use acceptable English. Spell checkers are readily available for most browsers if you feel you need them. If English is not your first language, or if your language skills are not great, please at least try. We can live with imperfect grammar, as long as your sentences are understandable. Text speak and typing everything in caps is not acceptable.
      More than anything else, misspelling, a lack of capitalisation and creative use of punctuation is what gives ZeroIn its terrible online reputation. Locking offensively poor posts (until the user improves the legibility of their contribution) should be sufficient to remind people that when they are asking for help from others, they should make the effort to ensure others can comprehend the request. ZeroIn itself has a distressing number of SPaG errors; Classifieds subfora don't need the apostrophe in 'SMG's' - it makes no sense at all and it's repeated four times on the front page alone.

      More generally, individual posts subject to any form of moderation shouldn't be deleted outright - their content should simply be replaced by text explaining which rule was infringed and which moderator took action, so that the author and other users can at least understand the moderation.

    These are just my ideas and opinions; I'm sure everyone else has better and different ones. But these should be pretty simple to implement and hopefully helpful in improving the rather terrible reputation ZeroIn has garnered online.
    Last edited by PureSilver; 31 December, 2013, 00:56.

  • #2
    Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

    I'd be happy to pay an annual fee for a proper membership, one that holds my details that only Z1 can access in the event of a mishap, to show who can be trusted and who can't

    Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

      I'd also be happy on a small annual fee I do that on other forums I use to do with flashlights and bushcraft so I don't see why not on here an annual membership though like the other forums should only be used to acsses the classified section not the whole forum

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

        I whole heatedly support your enthusiasm but I fear it will fall on deaf ears.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

          It's been suggested many times that the forum gets a huge kick in the nuts to stop this crap and help it's users

          Yet I never see the staff doing anything to help us if a scammer pops up they just get deleted and everything gets hidden , granted like us they have lives but that doesn't stop them handing out infractions for retarded things

          We need help, so help us

          Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

            How about we all just use some common bloody sense. There is no real way to verify any sort of information on the interwebs. Use Paypal, pay the fees, or be aware that there are people out there that will fleece you. With regards to the scam you linked...these are the kind of people who might as well give Dr. Mugwumbe from Kenya their bank details because he's holding a large sum of money that they are entitled too.

            I wouldn't trust a stranger on the street, So why would I trust somebody on the internet that I've not even seen before.

            For the record I have traded on here before and I do buy things with Paypal "gift" setting and I have never had any issues, If I had that would be my own fault, It seems its all to easy now days to blame somebody else for our own stupidity.

            Here's my suggestion: If you are making a trade exchange a copy of your driving licence and only send the items to that address, that way any losses incurred can be taken up in small claims court.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

              Originally posted by iambarkster View Post
              Use Paypal, pay the fees...
              PayPal do not cover you for RIFs.

              I sell you a RIF for £300
              You pay by paypal
              I send you a rotting skunk instead of RIF
              You complain to Paypal
              I mention it is a "gun" deliberately
              Paypal wash their hands of the situation

              If you are buying / selling RIFs and you use Paypal you are simply giving them money for no reason as your fees do not buy you any protection.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

                Originally posted by iambarkster View Post
                How about we all just use some common bloody sense. There is no real way to verify any sort of information on the interwebs. Use Paypal, pay the fees, or be aware that there are people out there that will fleece you. With regards to the scam you linked...these are the kind of people who might as well give Dr. Mugwumbe from Kenya their bank details because he's holding a large sum of money that they are entitled too.
                Allow me to point out two inherent contradictions in this paragraph. First, you suggest we all use common sense - but then you note that people fall for obvious scams, an assertion resting on the premise that either 'common sense' is an oxymoron or that it doesn't have much to say about online scams. Second, you point out that there's no way of verifying information online, a statement that you promptly prove patently false by giving an example of a service (PayPal) that is in the business of verifying information online. Third - not so much a contradiction as terrible advice - you suggest that it's common sense to use PayPal, when (as I, and loki7491, but not ZeroIn's rules, point out) PayPal themselves explicitly forbid transactions involving imitation firearms and will refuse to adjudicate disputes concerning them.

                Originally posted by iambarkster View Post
                For the record I have traded on here before and I do buy things with Paypal "gift" setting and I have never had any issues, If I had that would be my own fault, It seems its all to easy now days to blame somebody else for our own stupidity.
                First, thanks for a convincing demonstration of my final point about the declining standard of SPaG on these forums. Second, in the hypothetical circumstance of you being scammed, while it would certainly have been your mistake in failing to take basic precautions to protect yourself, would knowing that your own error was partly to blame somehow resolve the problem for you? "Oh no - I've been scammed! At least I can take solace from knowing that it's somewhat my fault."

                Here are the basic facts - in a straightforward scam, which are plentiful on this forum's Classifieds, the only person that is to blame is the scammer. The other party, operating in good faith, might be contributorily negligent in failing to protect himself with due diligence and/or 'common sense', but ultimately it is not his fault he's being scammed. Instead of blaming users for falling for a scam, wouldn't it be better to reduce the number of scams openly presented to them on this forum, educate them on common types of scam, and put into place basic procedures that make it harder to scam them?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

                  Im not sure where this RIF thing and Paypal come from. Ive yet to see anywhere in their terms and conditions that say anything about toys. Thats what we are dealing with at the end of the day. Not firearms.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

                    Originally posted by iambarkster View Post
                    Im not sure where this RIF thing and Paypal come from. Ive yet to see anywhere in their terms and conditions that say anything about toys.
                    From PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy and their Help Centre article "What is Paypal's policy on transactions that involve firearms?":

                    Originally posted by PayPal Acceptable Use Policy
                    Prohibited Activities

                    You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

                    1. violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation.

                    2. relate to transactions involving [...] (j) certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.
                    Originally posted by PayPal Help Centre
                    Related items that you can buy and sell using PayPal include paintball guns, blank guns, and air-soft guns, as long as such transactions are legal in the applicable jurisdiction.
                    The problem here is that the sale of RIFs is illegal in the applicable jurisdiction (the UK) under s.36(1)(c) of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006; airsofters merely have a "defence" against prosecution for offences under the VCRA under s.37(1), (5) & (6)(a) of the 2006 Act and applicable statements made by the appropriate Secretary of State. PayPal have indicated in past disputes that they are no longer willing to accept evidence of defences to s.36(1)(c), and instead decline to adjudicate disputes concerning airsoft guns as they are prima facie illegal in the UK.

                    Originally posted by iambarkster View Post
                    [T]oys. Thats what we are dealing with at the end of the day. Not firearms.
                    Wrong again, I'm afraid. By virtue of failing to meet the "lethal" requirement of s.57 of the Firearms Act 1968 (noted by Appendix 1, s.B, subheading 'DEFINITIONS' to a Home Office memorandum of 2000 issued as part of the Second Report, Control of Firearms of the Home Affairs Committee) IFs and RIFs are indeed not firearms. However, under the Toy (Safety) Regulations 2011, implementing Directive 2009/48/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council on the safety of toys:

                    Originally posted by Toy (Safety) Regulations 1011
                    4. Toys to which these Regulations apply
                    (3) These Regulations do not apply to—
                    (f) products listed in Annex I to the Directive, as amended from time to time.
                    Originally posted by Directive 2009/48/EC
                    ANNEX I

                    List of products that, in particular, are not considered as toys within the meaning of this Directive

                    2. Products for collectors, provided that the product or its packaging bears a visible and legible indication that it is intended for collectors of 14 years of age and above. Examples of this category are:
                    (e) reproductions of real fire arms.

                    9. Guns and pistols using compressed gas[.]
                    IFs and RIFs are not toys, they're Imitation Firearms (or Realistic Imitation Firearms) and are governed by a separate and different legal regime to toys. I know that you think I'm being obtuse in pointing this out, but I assure you that that distinction is extremely important both in general and in particular cases of fine print, as it is here.
                    Last edited by PureSilver; 31 December, 2013, 03:50.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

                      Also take note of further T&Cs for PayPal that fees can NOT be added on top of cost, it has to be factored in to the cost, therefor, you can say 'buyer pays fees', you have broken the T&Cs of PayPal.
                      Which is also a legally binding contract.
                      section 24 of the 1968 Act
                      Supplying imitation firearms to minors
                      1)It is an offence for a person under the age of eighteen to purchase an imitation firearm
                      2)It is an offence to sell an imitation firearm to a person under the age of eighteen.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

                        Easy way to get around Paypal's archaic rules about selling RIFs is to break the Gun down in to 2 easily re-assembled pieces and sell as "Spares/Parts" (known to be working at time) or "Accessories".
                        It's done all the time on FleaBay but for the wrong reasons :-( (to avoid need for defence/age restrictions etc)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

                          Well I can't argue with what you've laid out in front of me there PureSilver. But I'm still standing by the argument of common sense. I think I most of us on the forums have had a trouble free time with trades and sales; I do not see the point in changing a system that works, If its going to punish us (non raggamuffins) at the end of the day.

                          I'm pretty sure the only reason I signed up to these forums was to purchase something from the classifieds section, Given the nature of the sales it would be a fair assumption to say that under your proposal the item would no longer be available. I would also like to point out that this is my 18th Post in over two years.

                          I think point 4 is pointless, really as there is no way to verify information, perhaps if it were possible to glean personal information from a UKARA player number that might work. (Not sure if I've seen something floating around saying that ZeroOne will do checks for RIF sales?)

                          Your final point I do and don't agree on. To a lesser degree yes, But there's no need to go overboard with regards to grammar and capitalisation. But it would be hilarious to see some form of Grammar CAPTCHA (See: http://www.defectiveyeti.com/iacaptchas/) to see its effect on the forums user base.

                          There are far worse forums I've been on. Since I've personally had zero issues, I do not want to see things changed and wanted to put across why I feel this way.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

                            We can all wax lyrical regarding this issue but we have to be pro active in protecting ourselves. I have just been scammed for the first time in 18 months on the forum and sick with myself for allowing it to happen. I do blame myself for not being more vigilant and trusting everyone I come across. This is my nature and has made me the person in am today. However, it is a reality that someone out there is always trying to do someone some harm if they can.

                            So how do we stop this? The fact is that you can't unless every transaction is done face to face so we can see what we are buying with our hard earned cash.

                            Just my two penny woth.
                            Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win!!!!!!!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Stopping ZeroIn's Classifieds, and the Forum Generally, from Sucking

                              Originally posted by Jez@ARarmouries View Post
                              Yet I never see the staff doing anything to help us if a scammer pops up they just get deleted and everything gets hidden
                              Happy to leave scammer accounts and their fake sales active if you wish?
                              Originally posted by Nun-Chuck
                              I'm down every games day at EAG buddy just give me a shout and I'll whip it out, can have a squeeze too if you like.
                              Originally posted by deanfirst
                              why not use zeroone's escort service?

                              Comment

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