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No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

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  • No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

    Hi ladies and gents, just thought I'd make this announcement seeing as I've recently fallen victim to PayPal (UK) Acceptable Use Policy in attempting to "dispute" and "claim" for a package that was received not as described, with some things missing.

    ...

    If you use PayPal when purchasing Airsoft guns, whether they be IFs (Imitation Firearms) or RIFs (Replica Imitation Firearms), both of which are legal definitions provided by Section 38 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 with the specifications for IFs listed in Section 39, then you do so at your own risk.
    I've been in touch with Paypal quite a bit more than I ever have been over the last couple of weeks asking them to clarify why my case hadn't been taken forward. The simplest answer they give me is that if you use the PayPal service for the sale/ purchase of any type of Firearm, then if there was something that went wrong in the deal, there would be no protection offered as it's in breach of their Acceptable Use Policy.

    To read this policy, click me.

    Prohibited Activities

    You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

    violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation (...)

    relate to transactions involving (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.
    Now there are still a couple of questions that I have to ask regarding this.

    1) If a seller was to sell one airsoft gun, but sells this weapon in two separate transactions, in two separate packages, what cover is provided then, or are the terms still the same, and
    2) What "ammunition, firearms parts or accessories" are prohibited?

    The answer to the latter has caused some confusion over the phone with some PayPal colleagues - some say that it's acceptable to sell any accessories for Airsoft guns, whilst selling the ammunition for them (6mm/ 8mm BBs) is prohibited. Others have said the opposite.

    So, what are we supposed to do for receiving and sending funds?

    That's an interesting and hard to answer question. Regarding my "deal gone wrong", I contacted the bank in order to initiate a chargeback claim which was refused on the grounds that "although direct debit transactions are covered there are certain conditions to this. Simply claiming the item arrived not in the condition it was advertised is not acceptable to make the chargeback claim". They have since advised that I take this through the Small Claims system. Please note I'm with Barclays at the moment, other banks may have different regs.

    I would advise that buyers use the PayPal service with caution. Gifting is always a big no-no, unless you personally know the individual. Don't pay via gift even when the seller requests this - generally the fees you add for the "protection" is only minimal, around 3.4% + 20p I believe. I simply round up to 5% and add this on most occasions. Having said this I have recently asked for fees to be added for my sales, and if that's not possible, to gift me the money and the buyers have done so without an issue. Of course with my feedback and position on this forum, there's no chance that I'm going to start scamming people in any way, plus I always retain proof of postage (post office receipts).

    Sellers should also use the PP service with caution. It could be possible, although I think there's only a very minute chance of this, that PP could suspend or investigate your account if you are selling things and using their service (PP) to facilitate any sales which are in breach of the Acceptable Use Policy. You will note in this policy there isn't any distinguishing between buyers and sellers, so it is my interpretation that this policy applies to both.

    What do we do if things go wrong?

    There wouldn't be anything stopping you from opening a "PayPal dispute" and then escalating it to the "Claim" level. However be advised that there's not a great chance of being successful with this. There's many other stories other than mine where people have had issues and attempted to rely on PP, only to find their cases closed.

    Firstly, you should contact the buyer or seller - whomever is responsible for the problems encountered with the sale/ item.
    Airsoft is supposed to be an honesty sport, therefore any reputable seller should always help out any buyer who has any issue whatsoever and attempt to amicably resolve issues without they even enter any disputes process. I know all too well however, that some people will intentionally chose to ignore you, block communications, etc etc, and in this instance I would advise the complainant to begin collecting evidence of the sale, invoice and transcripts between the two parties.

    If this doesn't go to plan, then open the PayPal dispute, if you've paid using this method, as described a little more in the paragraph above the previous.

    Next, you should want to try contacting your Bank in order to initiate a chargeback claim. It may not be possible to receive a partial chargeback - most banks are inclined to refund the entire amount of the transaction. So for example, in my case where I purchased a PTS Masada which was sent missing a few parts we agreed would be included, absent of the high torque motor upgrade and a couple of condition issues, the bank would be issuing the full, £410 refund, whereas I have simply requested that I receive a partial refund in the amount of £75 to fix the issues, install the HT motor that was sold to me as being installed as well as a couple of other things.
    As an honest player, it would then be my desire to repay the seller, in the amount of £410 - 75 (£335).

    Depending on your banks conditions, regulations, guidelines and so forth, you may not have any success with this. So then I'd recommend contacting your card company - for example Visa, Mastercard, Maestro etc and asking them what they can do to help.

    If again you don't get anywhere, then look at using a scheme provided by the Government, called "Money Claim Online", click me.
    Essentially this service is for taking legal action against somebody who owes you money and won't pay and can also be known as taking someone to the "Small Claims Court". Please note it is important that you have the individuals address details for the purposes of this process, as the Court Representatives will need to contact this individual on your behalf in order to establish the resolution.
    I would advise reading up about this service as much as possible and only using it as a last resort.
    Before filing a claim for this service, I would strongly advise you personally contact the seller/ buyer stating that it is your intention to take them to court if a resolution cannot be provided. [Citation needed] I believe that legally you are required to give the other party at least 7 working days to respond to this [citation needed]. I have "threatened" using this service in the past when I "bank transferred" money to a seller several years ago for a Dboys Scar L, which was never sent to me. Upon receipt of my letter to them, they were quick to respond in apology, giving X, Y and Z excuses which I'm used to now, but the weapon was sent off to me and received.

    So hopefully this stage isn't necessary.

    A quick note here. It is the sellers responsibility to ensure the item arrives with the buyer in the exact same condition it was advertised in. I've heard many people say "it's in the post therefore out of my hands" - and this is wrong. If a seller decides to use the postal service or couriers, etc, for the delivery of the item they remain responsible for it until it arrives in the buyers hands.
    If it arrives and the buyer is not satisfied (with the easiest example being damaged in transit), it is the sellers responsibility to contact the courier/ delivery company in order to establish grounds for compensation. This is not the buyers responsibility. Of course it must be proved that the item, at the time of wrapping and sending, was in the exact condition as listed. A buyer could not make any claims against the seller after opening the package and playing with their new purchase for 5 minutes and then it breaking. For example an AEG could be sold as fully working, arrives in buyers hands and after firing 10 shots, the piston strips - the important thing is that it did work, it's just that the damages were just around the corner from happening.

    What do you advise?

    Different people will take different approaches to this, so I'm not going to offer any perfect answer.
    What I am considering doing myself is getting a credit card from Barclays bank, and making any second hand purchases with this, as it seems there's more protection offered for those using credit cards, more so than debit cards.

    As always, buying anything over the internet or anything second hand is a potentially problematic affair - if you ever have to dispute a transaction it's normally an effortful and time consuming process. It shouldn't be but sadly the way the world works can cause issues for the innocent, therefore always remember the golden rule. You buy things at your own risk - all measures to ensure the problems are non existent or at least minimised should be taken before purchasing.
    So... ask as many questions as you can. Get as many pictures as you can. Have a chat with the other party. Do some research into the other individual. Google can be your friend and a very good one when utilised properly!

    Good luck all!
    Last edited by Gaffa; 28 March, 2014, 21:48. Reason: Add a little info re: address needed for Small Claims


    Please get in touch if you want general help. Please report problematic posts.

    Take responsibility for your choices. If you break any rule in life, you should be held accountable.

  • #2
    Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

    Surely this thread is basically a guide for scammers? Don't mean to be critical or anything, just expressing my opinion......

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    • #3
      Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

      I see where you're coming from, but could you clarify a bit further in detail?

      This policy has been in affect since July 2012 by the way.


      Please get in touch if you want general help. Please report problematic posts.

      Take responsibility for your choices. If you break any rule in life, you should be held accountable.

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      • #4
        Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

        Originally posted by Gaffa View Post
        I see where you're coming from, but could you clarify a bit further in detail?

        This policy has been in affect since July 2012 by the way.
        I just mean that stating openly that paypal offers no protection seems a bit of a bad idea. On other forums when I've had issues receiving items I've paid for, usually threatening to open a paypal case resolves the issue. If scammers know for a fact it offers no protection then I doubt that would be the case.

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        • #5
          Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

          Well just because this post is here doesn't necessarily mean the scammers will read it or acknowledge it.

          Furthermore, the threat of, or the very opening of PayPal disputes/ cases against the other party are still likely to cause some people to "buck up" and delivering the items.

          As I said, it's the buyers responsibility to ensure he/ she is happy with the deal they are intending to purchase. PayPal also isn't the only payment method, and it could be worse... you could be sending cash in the mail which will have even less chance of recourse.

          Remember the issue here is that PayPal won't accept liability for anything in the disputes process when the item in question is a "firearm". Other items are still covered, or at least this is my understanding of their terms and policies.


          Please get in touch if you want general help. Please report problematic posts.

          Take responsibility for your choices. If you break any rule in life, you should be held accountable.

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          • #6
            Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

            I could advertise a brand new mobile for sale, and send you a house brick. So long as I've used a recorded service I'll win every time. It's a flawed service, and always has been

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            • #7
              Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

              Originally posted by HuntR View Post
              I could advertise a brand new mobile for sale, and send you a house brick. So long as I've used a recorded service I'll win every time. It's a flawed service, and always has been
              Until the buyer makes a complaint on the grounds of "goods not as described". Sales of Goods Act 1979.

              See here:- http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/englan...escription.htm


              Please get in touch if you want general help. Please report problematic posts.

              Take responsibility for your choices. If you break any rule in life, you should be held accountable.

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              • #8
                Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

                Nope. The goods not as described is an option that you are guaranteed to lose. It's a farce. The only option you have is item not received. But you'll only win that if a non recorded service was used. PayPal has been this way for years. Also, good luck claiming for lost/damaged items with Royal Mail. If you buy a second hand item and decide to sell it, and have no receipt your screwed. Without a receipt all they'll give you is a book of 1st class stamps. It's like everyone is out to get your money. The only safe option is face to face, or only deal with people you trust. Which is a sad thing to have to do.

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                • #9
                  Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

                  Oh sorry, I misunderstood. Yes as far as PayPal are concerned you are certainly correct.

                  The fact still remains a Civil matter however, and a buyer could quite easily go through the small claims system for items not as described.


                  Please get in touch if you want general help. Please report problematic posts.

                  Take responsibility for your choices. If you break any rule in life, you should be held accountable.

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                  • #10
                    Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

                    Small claims is the best idea yeah. It costs you £25 but if the case is found in your favour the other party involved has to cover that fee. So it's definitely worth going down that route. I just wish paypal would be more considerate and not penny pinching thieves

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

                      Yep, looks like I'll have to be using Small Claims for my case. Got all the evidence documented too, original sales pitch and photo, comments on the sale, what was discussed, the PayPal invoice, my messages/ complaints to seller since receiving and the evidence I submitted to PayPal.

                      This individual also removed the sales thread after I started complaining and removed me from their group (this sale took place on one of the Facebook groups). So seems like I've got a pretty good chance of winning. I hope.


                      Please get in touch if you want general help. Please report problematic posts.

                      Take responsibility for your choices. If you break any rule in life, you should be held accountable.

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                      • #12
                        Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

                        I don't know if it's still the same since I last made a claim, but so long as you had their address, and all the relavent information it was straight forward. Their address was a must when I claimed, you couldn't proceed without it. Wether or not they've changed their stance on that I'm not sure.

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                        • #13
                          Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

                          Thanks, yeah I have their address from the Paypal Invoice.

                          (Another point of advice): whenever I buy anything second hand, I copy all details about everything into MS Word documents. Gives less chance for the seller to falsify info/ make up stories.


                          Please get in touch if you want general help. Please report problematic posts.

                          Take responsibility for your choices. If you break any rule in life, you should be held accountable.

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                          • #14
                            Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

                            I think the address is important as the court need to send them a letter issuing proceedings and giving them a time to cough up.
                            I did this against a business that owed me a couple of hundred quid and had ignored repeated emails and invoices. The online process was a doddle, it helped me calculate interest on the amount owed and claim that and the 25 (iirc) charge on top of the amount. Cheque appeared promptly
                            "The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."
                            George Carlin

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                            • #15
                              Re: No protection when purchasing IFs/ RIFs through PayPal

                              Thanks chaps, I added that info in the guide.

                              A question - what does one do if they do not have this information? Are they well and truly stumped?


                              Please get in touch if you want general help. Please report problematic posts.

                              Take responsibility for your choices. If you break any rule in life, you should be held accountable.

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                              About the Author

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                              Gaffa Nicknamed "Gaffa" because I can be bossy, but get the job done! I'm built for comfort, not speed... Find out more about Gaffa
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