Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

[steve grey]

Probably quite a controversial one this, but I've noticed, over the last couple of years, the increasing difficulty people seem to have in selling their Systema/Celcius PTW's, and the massive hits they have to take on the price they get for them, when they were once airsoft gold dust. I also notice that a number of "well known" Systema users, have at least one of theirs up for sale, often saying P/EX considered for TM recoil. Now, as many will know, I've been a big fan of TM recoils from almost day one. and had many a good discussion on here regarding the pros and cons with PTW owners over the years.....So what do you guys think, is there still a future for the PTW as we know it? or is it game over?

[druid799]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

Very good point mate , once I got in to S'ofting properly I always wanted a PTW , being ex-forces I wanted that 'little bit more' realism (I know no were near a real gun but you get were I'm coming from) but never did due to the price , family man so WAY too expensive ! Could not legitimise spending that much so I also went down the TM recoil route . My first one was second hand a very good few yrs ago of skippy on this very forum (and it's still going strong !) I have handled a few PTW's in the past and yes they are better than the TM's BUT it's just a game I'm not training for the real thing any more so I don't need one the TM more than provides the realism I 'need' wether it's switching the mags to 30rds or just the mag lock mag change its gives me what I want . But if you do want one and you can afford it , go for it ! I'm not going too look down on you , though has to be said it has happened a few times the other way , and I think I can safely say we've ALL met THAT player at some time in the past ?

[W0lf]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I think it's a combination of a few things. TM recoils offer awesome performance with some realistic features at half the price, and GBBR's have become more skirmishable over the years, which offer as realistic experience as you'll ever get. It will never be as playable as a recoil, but I've converted to GBBR's and I do just fine. Most airsoft guns now offer similar performance to a ptw for a fraction of the price.

[steve grey]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I tend to agree with the points made by Druid and Wolf, I never really thought PTW's were worth the price tag myself, although they were better than what was available, but now they aren't. A number of much cheaper guns now perform just as well, and the recoils have the extra features too, so for realistic effect,(disregarding the slight size/weight issue) the recoils have it nailed, which is why it's now, so hard to sell the PTW's. So to answer my own question, I would say, yes, the Systema's and Celcius, have had their day....

[seansamurai1]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I think its more Systema have almost killed off the PTW market themselves.
TM brought something new to the table when the NGRS was released, it forced others to up their game and some to have their own version. It breached the gap between AEG and GBB and gave a bit of added realism in the AEG world.
Systema havent changed anything in years, the design is the same, the most common issues are still there, they are still insanely expensive and still offer not much over anything else. They dont offer the realism, theres no 'feel', they are bloody expensive to fix when it breaks.
Even Celcius who are regarded by many as being utter twoddle have at least finally released an AK TW platform, something Systema shouldve done long ago rather than sitting on their laurels with wild claims that make them seem more than they are.

I think the TM just opened peoples eyes.

[papa]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

Owned the same gun since 2008 and yes its a Systema, stopped working once having the motor fail (common fault)
It shoots faster and further than any other aeg I've owned.. The price is related to quality

Bought a Tippmann and its awesome.. full auto is all over the place as it should be with recoil (it brings a smile)

[seansamurai1]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

Price is related to quality? You contradict yourself, the motor (I might add the fact they cost over 200 quid to buy new) failed on a 1000 pound plus gun.
Ive owned a TM hicapa pistol since 2006 and its never missed a beat.
Ive had Cyma AKs that have gone and still are going since about 2007/2008. No motor failures on them.
Im intrigued to know how fast yours shoots, considering 30-40RPS is G&P territory and 60 RPS isnt all that difficult to achieve and costs much less than a TW. As for shooting further, well, clearly all your other AEGs were setup poorly.

What the TW brought was consistency. Having handled and used a few TWs, the build quality is far from 1100 quids worth.

[W0lf]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

Also the fact that in America where the majority of the sales probably were, you could buy a real AR for £1100

[mightyjebus]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

A TM recoil with a BTC spectre fitted is pretty close to the same trigger response as the PTW's. The PTW is still a little faster but the TM is half the price even with the BTC installed. Add to this the hop unit adapter you can get for the TM Recoil M4 series and you make the TM more appealing as you can use any bog standard AEG magazine.

But truthfully I think the real killer for the PTW has been the pound to dollar exchange rate. In the PTW hayday a pound would get you 2 dollars so a PTW was expensive but just about affordable for most people with a disposable income even with the markup in the UK. I bought a couple of PTW's for 750 quid in the UK and a year later they had shot up to over 1200 pounds.
This has also made repairing PTW's more expensive and the real trick with the PTW's was if you bought one and it worked straight out the box and you didn't tinker with it then it would still be going great. However if you got a lemon, and there was a few, then it because expensive to fix and even more expensive when the pound dropped against the dollar. Hence the popularity of the etiny electrics as these where, and still are, much cheaper and offer better options.
Add to all this the CTW, DTW and A&K TW which offered similar features as the PTW but at a cheaper price. The lemon rate was much higher on these but ultimately much cheaper to repair if you used the same internals (i.e. replacement DTW electrics for a knackered DTW).

As for the original question then I think recoils have played a part in the decline of the PTW platform but there have been other important factors at play as well. If you want to sell a PTW right now then sadly it's a buyers market so the price isn't going to be great.

The future of PTW's? Well if the pound ever recovers then they might gain popularity again as the price drops. Systema also need to look at refreshing the market with something new. I'm sure a G3 model or a 417 would be a seller if the price was right.

[Wilkes 1875]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

Got to say I agree with you. If you want realism, get a GBBR. If you want performance buy a Systema, as they are the best performing gun imo. However... The TM recoil, with a few upgrades is practically as good as a systema in every way, and is more realistic in the way it shoots etc. For me, if you rate the performance of the Systema as 100 as best performance you can buy, a TM recoil is about 99 but half the price. If I could afford it I'd have one of both.. but alas, I just own a recoil.

Also the points about them not changing is very true. We always want something new and systema have stoop still for too long, not addressing the issues they have.

[Chewybacka]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I believe it's all about the price and the state of the economy.
Let's face it, if both were much better, just about everyone would have a PTW. Having owned both the PTW is better.
I do smile when people talk about realism, as rif's only compare in the way they look as against real AR's.

[sj_asc]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

It doesn't take a lot of work to make a TM Recoil with a mosfet have a better trigger response than the SystemA, what's more, the sound of the recoil function works as a nice mask for covering gear noise for slower cycle rates.
I think it's also starting to make a dent in the HPA market too, since many people quickly get bored of the inert feel.

[steve grey]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

What SJ says above, is my tipping point too, a well set up Recoil, is pretty much on par with a Systema, but the recoil feature, makes it feel a little more exciting in the hand, whilst still giving the ease of use, of an AEG. If someone offered me a free one, but said, "this is your only gun", for that factor alone, I'd choose the Recoil. ..I'd see no reason not to.

[blytm]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I think these days to class any of the Systema's or Celicus' as 'PTW' is completly false. They aren't used for training any longer (certainly not in this country) as the use of GBBR's has become an excellent platform and far closer than what a PTW can offer. I've had the pleasure of supplying & watching people from the police force and military using the GBBR's. To the point the owner of the shop has a business that supplies them to the Met for certain training events.

I tend to think of Systema's as a high end AEG nothing more. Personally I don't think they sound great, not that many AEG's do but the high pitched twang sound just takes away that imersion feeling as such. I love my recoil SCAR H and is generally a fun gun to shoot.

So to answer the OP - GBBR's have killed the Systema market for the purpose of being a PTW. In terms of today's airsoft I think Recoil and HPA (annoyingly) have become the go to guns for less the price of a Systema.

[Fitch]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

Went from PTW to recoil back to PTW. Bought a few recoils and they still felt toy-like.

Still prefer the PTW platform over the Marui recoil one, regardless of price. Everything feels so much more solid.