Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

[Sprint]

Im on the fence at the moment and tbh im struggling to decide wether to go HPA or GBBR.

Im hoping some of you guys that have had first hand long term experience can let me know what your thoughts are!

Im not fussed about re gassing or low cap mags, the main things that stand out to me with respect to PRO's & CON's are;
1: Cool down effect, obvious one for GBBR but i dont think this is even an issue when semi/DMR shooting and could be disregarded.
2: The benefits of shooting from closed bolt i think are big, i understand you can do this with th P* Fusion, although 1 shot is always dry fire unless you count out your rounds and make sure to change out the mag before fully empty. (do i have that right?)
3: AEG style bucking vs GBB, i think the latter is a much better performer, especially in conjunction with closed bolt due to the greater nozzle contact area for air seal
4: With GBB there is no posibilty for stiction or O ring set if the gun is not fired for a long period

The models in comparison are high end GBBR's... the likes of TM MWS & GHK M4 against properly sorted HPA setups, EG P* Fusion in TM body with perfect unit setup.
How do you think the above set ups compare in consistency and accuracy at say 70M assuming set FPS of 350-400 (0.2s)?
Should i just stump up for an MWS and have nearly all the work done for me by TM or are the rewards for HPA worth the personal tech time for build up?

Im trying to make an educated decision as ultimately its a costly one either way!

[Proffrink]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

Started with a GBBR: After 4 years realised that the weather in the UK just isn't good enough not to use HPA, because keeping the recoil was important to me but so was being able to play half of the year.

1. The issue too with GBBRs as DMRs is that the cold does affect that muzzle energy even if cooldown due to rapidly firing isn't there. It does result in a different muzzle energy from month to month depending on the weather and that's just no good for setting a consistent hop (and therefore consistent accuracy).
2. Depends on what you want - closed bolt is excellent for keeping the gun quiet, but coming from a GBBR is this your primary concern? Solenoid HPA is more quiet that 90% of AEGs and almost all GBBs out of the box though. With a suppressor they're basically inaudible from more than 15 metres away and the noise tends to be low and bassy rather than the high pitched whine from many motors or the very mechanical sound of a GBBR.
3. Buckings aren't an issue - that's a hop or barrel problem. HPA only changes your power source.
4. I'd say that really solenoid HPA is if anything easier to maintain than a GBBR. Fully pneumatic HPA engines on the other hand is a little more tricky and does require lubrication really every time it's taken out to perform properly.

Basically if you have the money then I'd say go HPA. You can tap your GBBR magazines if you like (affordable, easy to do, reaps the benefits of resisting cooldown much better), go for electric solenoid HPA (basically the best performing airsoft guns one can buy today when you consider trigger response, noise signature or RoF - if you're into that), or you could go for pneumatic HPA like Tippmann or Daytona Gun and keep the recoil of your GBBR but in a gun that requires no mag taps and is - in the case of DG - pretty exotic and noisy.

The over-arching thing I'd say here though is that HPA is a power source. A very, very consistent one but a power source nonetheless. You can spend £500 on an HPA rig and electric solenoid hit like Polarstar, Wolverine Hydra/Inferno etc. but if your barrel and hop unit are naff then an AEG will outperform it. If you get it right then it's very easy to make that the other way around, however. Drop-in solenoid HPA kits are very easy to fit into almost any shell. Around an hour to build. Adjusting your dwell and hop might take you another hour or so and may require some TLC later on.

Oh and for the love of god use .30s if you play woodland and crono on the weight you intend to use and measure in Joules so that you don't end up Joule creeping and making everyone think you're one of those nefarious HPA players who're out to hurt everyone.

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

In terms of slinging a plastic ball down a smooth bore tube, you will struggle to beat HPA.

For me, it's GBBR all the way.

The mags are expensive.
The mags are heavy.
Ammo count is limited.
Some guns struggle in the cold.

But the way you game with one is exactly what I like. You cease to be an airsofter and need to become a hunter. Every shot needs to count and you cannot get into sustained firefights won by the person who bought most ammo with them.

You need to stalk, be tactically aware and think about what you are doing.

I am sure there are one or two HPA users like that but in my experience it is an evolutionary step backwards. Trigger spamming at such a rate even guns locked to semi can have an automatic fire rate. And the hose...... The God damned hose and external tank. I hate the look of them. I hate how if you have tapped mags you need to switch the hose over with every mag change. I hate the way I cannot pass my gun through a window and then jump through myself without the additional faff of the hose.

If what you want out of a day is to very quietly sling a plastic ball, HPA is the road you should go down.

If what you want from the day is that added X factor of (dare I even say it?) realism* the GBBR is where you need to be.

*as real as we can make it whilst keeping it safe.
Penetration
Distance
Recoil
Rapport

None of these will be anything like the real thing unless you shoot .22

[Boo-Sabum Ben]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

Another thing to bear in mind, that often gets overlooked, is how it feels for others on the end.

You can be the nicest player, but an HPA doing 50rps will make you come across as an arse to others. A 1 second burst is sensible at the trigger end. At the other end it's still about 30 rounds smacking you, and you'll struggle to find people that enjoy playing against it.

It'll cause arguments, problems and disputes frequently. None of which may be your fault, but I can almost guarantee will come up a lot more.

I'm with Bryan on the HPA. It's a step backwards. Being connected to the gun, having a tank on your back, these things we overcame with the AEG. And the only real reason for going back to it is competitive performance, which for most, is quite contrary to what the hobby is about.

[Proffrink]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

I'd typically agree with you both if it weren't for the plethora of alternative HPA options these days. 3 years ago I'm fairly certain I would - I was fairly deep into my G&P WOC and others and put a lot of TLC into it but it's just not an ideal system any way you cut it. With HPA you have options, with GBB you rarely do because the power source is just so woefully inadequate.

Don't want a line? Buy a 13ci airstock (there are a couple of different ones available now)
Want recoil and noise? Buy a Daytona Gun kit or Tippmann
Want to make your shots count? Buy realcaps or midcaps (I know I do because reloading is fun)

HPA is not all solenoid HPA like Polarstar or Wolverine. It's just a power source and electric solenoid is one way of managing it - there are many others. Also, RoF is such a silly argument to make these days too - it's adjustable from 5 to 50 on most solenoid kits. If you want to be a generic HPA dick then you can, but you can just as easily be a reasonable player. I hardly think the power source can be blamed unless you think Sprint is so weak willed that he'll be running around with maraca mags spamming everyone he sees.

Perhaps this will help explain why I switched to a DG kit (not my video btw). The sound doesn't come across very well in the video, but it's nothing short of exquisite:

And some impressive spamming right here as a bonus

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

Until such time as they can hide any all HPA-ness I'm not interested in it.

I used to own a Barrett .50 that I was considering to HPA as everything could be contained in the gun with nothing externally to ruin the look, feel and flow of the gun. This was a few years back and HPA was still relatively expensive at the time so I sold it off without doing it.

If you could hide small bottles in M4 buffer tubes, solid stocks or front handguards I'd seriously consider it as it is very efficient system for slinging plastic down range.

If you could take the pros of GBBR and the pros of HPA and make a platform from both, I would consider that the Holy Graile of Airsoft.

[Proffrink]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

Fair enough.

I fear we may never see anything on par with some of the HPA LMG/MMG kits though - it's just impossible to get the power with current battery technology and without using some combustible solid.

[Sprint]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

Some great points, alot of which compound my thoughts... over and above all else my goal is performance.

My usual gameplay mode is sniper spotter / wingman duo, where i am the wingman, so i need to be able to take out targets quietly, preferably with one shot and help to keep the enemy 'front' 30M+ of our position for obvious reasons. Obviously the HPA mouse fart comes into play here over GBB.

I can assure you all i am not and never have been a hose man with any of my RIF's, its not my play, I get great satisfaction out of stalking so i can relate with you Bryan, along with ranged single shots, but i love an assualt rifle, hence why im here and not building/buying a sniper springer.

Dont get my wrong i love GBB pistol gameplay and i would never give that up, my GBB pistols are the main reason im in this predicament, the fact that they are capable of more consistent accuracy at 60M! The problem i have is being a pistol theres no stock, foregrip or mag optics to give a solid firing platform so the first shot lands on traget at distance.

GBBR realism is a nice by product experience for me, if GBB is not contributing to accuracy and consistency shooting wise then im out.
What is keeping me thinking about GBBR's is my positive experience from my pistols and that fact that i can pretty much go out and buy a GBBR that has had most of the work done by the manufacturer, a nice (and new for me) experience! Obviously not as rewarding as building up something ??

As a way of combating cool down would it work to run a high power gas and limit flow through the mag valve? IE burp a small high pressure shot rather than a lot of low pressure?

If you dont mind can you guys elaborate on your setups and what results you are getting; distance and grouping?

[gus]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

Sprint I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, I have a mk12 Mod0 build and I've decided to HPA it, as much as I'm no big fan of the airline and tank.

I've ordered a wolverine inferno kit today as it seamed the best of the bunch, tie that in with the already fitted prowin hop unit, madbull tightbore and flat hop mod, I hope to get pretty decent results.

But as this my first adventure into HPA so no doubt there will be dramas along the way

[Sprint]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

So Gus i take it you've come from alot of AEG tuning and have found yourself at a 'wall'?

Thats another aspect im undecided on, the drop in systems like the Inferno or full on Fusion? Closed bolt is swaying me to Fusion.
As you have a full sorted RIF already then drop in makes perfect sense, i see your logic there.

[Sprockets66]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

I run a GHK GBBR AK. A great gun, you never see many for sale secondhand.
HPA? You see loads for sale secondhand?

Maybe that is a way to answer the question!

[Sprint]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

There is definately truth in your statement there Sprocket

I do think however that there is a lot of people that may not be exploiting HPA's strengths fully, I mean a lot of people do build HPA platforms out of cheaper model AEG's and maybe this lends hop misalignment issues etc??

It for sure is easier to buy sorted GBBR than successfully build a full HPA platform. This is all part of my decision struggle!

What kind of groupings do you get at longer distances? I saw a vid of someone with a GHK M4 hitting torso from 200" easy whilst stood prone, definatly impressed!

[Hairybear]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

Gbb with hpa tapped mags, best setup for me. Get all the features of a gas gun but with a reliable power source and having to work for those hits is a more enjoyable experience than staffing the trigger and full auto fire.

[Proffrink]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

Just to add to that: Whilst I think taps are an excellent idea, they're really not a good plan for someone who plans to use something other than a DMR (hear me out) if you're buying new and aren't tapping an existing gun in your collection. I've seen so many sear-related issues after a year or two of use because people get a fair bit more comfortable with running cycling that action a lot more - tends to happen when one has the ability to do so with HPA and GBBR internals do wear out reasonably quickly when you're putting 150k through them a year. There are obviously aftermarket parts that one can buy to mitigate that though and the GHK M4s are very well built anyway (better than a lot of the WA systems) so there's that too.

Then there's the Tippmann, which is basically good to go other than a really quite awful aluminium barrel. If you're looking to get an M4 anyway then I'd look at that unless the trades are a really, really big problem for you. It'll be significantly cheaper overall once you factor in the mags you'd need for the GHK (which are not cheap). To be clear: When on HPA, the Tippmann M4 accepts AEG magazines.

I run a GHK GBBR AK. A great gun, you never see many for sale secondhand.
HPA? You see loads for sale secondhand?

Maybe that is a way to answer the question!

I'm really not sure what you mean here: That HPA in general gets ditched more than a rather niche GBBR?

What I have found is a lot of HPA users dive right in with the assistance of a shop and have their dwell misconfigured, improper storage of their tank (read jangling around hanging off some molle) or just using the wrong line and having it constantly getting in the way (2500psi rated coiled lines are a real eyesore and also far more cumbersome). Perhaps that's something to do with it?

Or, ya know, the more simple explanation is HPA has exploded in the UK just like it has in the US and the rest of the EU.

[Hairybear]

Re: Experiences please GBBR vs HPA

With proper maintenance you can help avoid some issues, a gbbr is still mechanical so yes it will eventually wear down over time. I have yet to come across a serious malfunction while using hpa taps, gas and AEG's have caused me greater problems in the past.
I use it for all types of gameplay and no issues at all.
Tippmans are very popular at my local site, not impressed with them at all, they make a great sound but see most of them getting taken away to be repaired.
As for line placement, you find a way that works for you. Doesn't matter what someone else thinks of it, at the end of the day it's all a game and you can enjoy it the way you want to. If that means having a line dangling down connected to your mag but your having a good time then so be it.