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Cambridgeshire newbie

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  • #16
    Re: Cambridgeshire newbie

    Yes the lack of consistency is really frustrating. Plastic does seem to do better but my only TM is a G18C and can't be used with a gas of any power or else it breaks, which has put me off TM a bit. But the TM mags in my all metal KJW P226 have sorted it right out and never given me any trouble...although today it did seem to choke a bit.
    So AEGs it is for actual airsofting, although my G&G 552 has stopped working again!
    However the Chinese made Umarex G36C never misses a beat. Go figure.

    Tbh it hasn't happened to me in a while, nowadays I mostly frequent Battlefield which is a nicer class of person. But in my early gaming days I tried out Halo and made the mistake of remonstrating with a young American who kept squeaking "faggot".
    Maybe I shouldn't have said "Oh are you really ? I'm not, but good luck finding a boyfriend!"

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    • #17
      Re: Cambridgeshire newbie

      Well I've been shopping all week and am now awaiting the various bits to try out the p90 I've been lent. Battery and charger arrived today, joyously the charger casing was broken and it was missing the right cable to fit my battery (not only listed in the description but also in the pictures) from the makers site. Ring them tomorrrow. Still awaiting bbs, spare mag and a molle pouch for the p90 mags. All in the post.

      Missed out on an amazing auction as... well I'm an idiot... for a whole bunch of pouches and the ancillaries my plate carrier is missing. Need to try and freshen that up a bit too, seems like it's not had much air. Ha.

      Ah yes the CoD days... mute was a very helpful tool. I tend toward single player now. Been on far cry a lot again recently.

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      • #18
        Re: Cambridgeshire newbie

        Originally posted by Defender-90 View Post
        Really no difference?
        I didn't say no difference, I said next to no difference.

        It's not just a matter of sticking in a long barrel, the cylinder also has to match if you increase the barrel length significantly

        If you're after better range and accuracy, you'd be better of investing in a better hop setup than simply sticking in a longer barrel

        If you skip to 7:28 of this video, it explains it in some part:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg9M4xVw40s&t=684s

        In terms of optimum barrel length, 420mm-450mm seems to get mentioned a few times

        Here's an article that was posted a long long time ago, in a forum far far away, by 'Hissing Sid':

        "S'funny but there's loads of BS flying around about what should and shouldn't happen with tightbores and longer barrels but, when I actually got around to reliably, repeatably, testing stuff the results were amazingly close to what the theory suggests.

        For example (of how NOT to do it), I once spent a morning buggering about testing different barrels and I found that the results were a bit random. Later on I realised I'd forgotten to leave the hop-up off.
        Every time I'd fitted a different barrel in my P90 I'd automatically set the hop back to its usual position before shooting it.
        This, of course, meant that the hop was sapping some of the power and messing with accuracy.

        In this situation you can do 2 things:-
        1) Ignore the mistake and start telling people skewed results.
        2) Go back and do it again, properly.

        I decided to go back and do it again.

        I've now had 5 standard barrels fitted to my P90 from the following guns:-
        MP5K
        P90
        MC51
        M4
        G3 S/G1

        The results were absolutely what you'd expect, theoretically, regarding power. The MP5K barrel was about 5fps lower than stock and the S/G1 barrel increased power by about 8fps. The others were somewhere in between.

        No barrel was particularly more accurate.
        Theoretically, fitting a longer barrel WILL increase accuracy purely because it increases power by a small amount and, thus, gives the BB a slightly flatter trajectory at the same range.
        However, if you consider what a P90 looks like and then imagine a P90 with an extra 12" of barrel poking out the end, THAT is the sort of extension you require to even begin to see a meaningful power increase.
        So, you've got your gun with a 2ft long barrel poking out of it. Now you've got another problem. The BB spends a LOT longer in the barrel and any movement you make during this time will totally ruin your aim.

        In practice this means that a longer barrel gives you a tiny bit more accuracy purely due to the additional power and then takes that accuracy away again because the gun is harder to shoot accurately.

        In practice there was no discernable difference between any of the barrels. Longer barrels din't give tighter groups or make for shots nearer the bullseye.

        Then there's tight-bores.

        My testing with tight-bores has been restricated to S/G1 barrels in a gun with a 1J spring.
        I tested the following barrels:
        Marui S/G1 barrel
        TK M16 Twist barrel
        KM 6.04 TN Barrel
        Systema 6.04 barrel
        Prometheus 6.03 barrel

        The results, again, showed that the tighter barrels increased power by a small amount. Fitting a 6.04 barrel caused a 4fps increase and fitting a 6.03mm barrel caused a 7fps increase.

        Again, accuracy is a subjective thing. I would point out, however, that where accuracy provided by longer barrels can be distorted by movement as the BB travels down the barrel, testing tight-bores of the same length means that the results should, at least, be consistant.

        I did tests at a range of 20m.
        Now, it might be argued that tests at longer ranges would be more useful.
        TBH, the longest indoor area I have access to is 20m long and I figured that it'd be better to test thais stuff indoors at 20m than outdoors at 35-40m where variations in wind might create inaccurate results.
        I figure that accuracy at greater range can be extrapolated from the results at 20m.
        Tests were carried out by 3 people and a concencus was reached. For example, if one of us thought a particular barrel was awful but the other two thought it was good we'd all go back and shoot it again until we were happy with the results. Maybe that's a flaw in the test? Maybe it creates pressure to conform with the majority?
        I dunno but on the day I think we were all happy with the results we achieved. I certainly didn't feel I'd been "bullied" into any of my conclusions about any barrel.

        There's no point in going into details but, basically, we found that the Marui barrel was ok. The TK barrel was pretty-much the same as the Marui barrel. Sometimes the TK barrel would shoot really tight groups and we'd think it was starting to work. Then we'd shoot with the Marui barrel some more and THAT would shoot some tight groups as well.
        Doh!
        Fitting the 6.04 barrels was a breath of fresh air. I (we) didn't see much difference between the Systema and KM 6.04s. They were both clearly better than the Marui barrel.
        As for the 6.03 barrel, bear in mind that my mate has a 6.04 barrel fitted to the S/G1 I built him and there might be some "penis envy" there cos I got a tighter barrel.
        When I shot the 6.03 barrel I was convinced it was a LOT better than the 6.04. When my mate shot it... he was as well!
        At 20m you can, literally, watch the BBs fly through the same hole in a target time after time.

        It occurs to me that the real benefit of a tight-bore barrel isn't actual "accuracy".
        Allow me to explain - The only item that I haven't really examined is the BB itself. When a bag of 5,000 BBs costs £8 you can't really expect them to be precision-engineered.
        If a BB isn't spherical or if it's slightly heavier on one side than the other then that's going to affect its accuracy.

        I wonder if the real benefit of a tighter barrel is that it helps "control" the BB as it's launched?
        If you fire 500 BBs through a stock Marui barrel some of them will go right where you aim them and some will go 12" away from that point. The tests were carried out with AND without hop-up so we got to see what the BBs do by themselves AND what they do when the hop is used to induce a deliberate rotation. The barrel isn't changing from shot to shot so the only thing that can be different is the BB (and the shooter, I guess).

        Anyway, my point is that in a tight-bore the BB doesn't have room to pitch, yaw or swerve as it travels so all it can do is fly straight. I wouldn't be surprised to find that is the true benefit of a tight-bore barrel rather than actual "accuracy" per-se.

        TBH, I can't really think of a way to prove this though. The only practical way to do it would be to fire a squillion BBs into a soft backstop and collect all the ones you considered to be "accurate". If you then fired them again and found them all to be accurate you might conclude that the other BBs did, indeed, have problems with the way they were constructed.

        Geez, I kinda went on a bit there. Back on planet Earth, a light breeze will screw up all the theory and testing you care to do. God bless toy guns!"
        Originally posted by Nun-Chuck
        I'm down every games day at EAG buddy just give me a shout and I'll whip it out, can have a squeeze too if you like.
        Originally posted by deanfirst
        why not use zeroone's escort service?

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        • #19
          Re: Cambridgeshire newbie

          Thanks.
          OK... so it looks like I could (should even) usefully stick with short barrels, which, along with folding stock, is useful for CQB, and I'm not in love with long barrels per se - only if they actually do something. But of course these are toy guns, ultra low powered air muskets really. And, as it says above, windage blows the BBs everywhere.
          So it's barrel length/cylinder volume + hop design are the real factors.
          And as this new law limits the amount of power I think that makes long barrels beyond a certain length less useful as there's only a limited amount of power we're allowed. Unless I go for a DMR.
          It makes me think that, for now, I should aim for either a CZ Evo or maybe another, higher quality, G36 (I really like the ergonomics). And also a chrono.

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          • #20
            Re: Cambridgeshire newbie

            Personally, I'd say go with whatever you like the look of. The internals can be upgraded over time to give you better performance, and certainly for accuracy/range then hop is the most important. It may also be worth switching up to 0.25 BBs if you haven't already

            Tests we did at GZ's range a few years ago showed that although we got more distance with a 0.20, the 0.25s were more consistent/accurate (tighter groupings) at range
            Originally posted by Nun-Chuck
            I'm down every games day at EAG buddy just give me a shout and I'll whip it out, can have a squeeze too if you like.
            Originally posted by deanfirst
            why not use zeroone's escort service?

            Comment

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