Motors...16:1...

[Hangtight]

Re: Motors...16:1...

If you're going for 'one shot kill stalking' then how about building a DMR? Pre cocking, ASG CNC 18K/10.44:1/7.4V/Gate Titan. That will have instantaneous trigger response and be able to cycle faster than you can pull the trigger. M120 spring /ICS piston with bearing (the weight works well with heavier ammo) for 400fps (0.2g), R hop /Maple Leaf hop rubber/Lonex hop up lifting 0.36g BBs through a 320mm Prometheus or PDI barrel...
Piston head drag is bad. It introduces another potential inconsistency. There's a reason high end pneumatics only use one seal. Regardless of the piston weight the pressure builds gradually behind the BB in a spring powered gun. However the extra inertia of a heavy piston with a heavy BB aids efficiency and consistency.
The other thing with the Titan is the adjustable trigger. It uses an optical sensor to sense the trigger position, so it can be adjusted from a full pull to hair trigger and a few points in between

[Sprint]

Re: Motors...16:1...

Yeh I've pretty much sold myself on the Titan today, that's in the bag for sure!

I'm going to hold back on the DMR / 400 part ATM and stay at 350, just because I'm not sure I wanna get involved with the whole MED rule play yet, but it's easy to step it up to that if I wanted to at a later date.

Funny you should say 320 barrel, what's gotten you to that length?
I say funny as I was doing some comparative calcs earlier based on personal known / previous setups with FPS/length/BB weight in mind and ended up with 310mm! Although I did think naaaa it can't be and was going for 400mm 6.05

I had planned to revisit R hop, I've never had overwhelming results despite CNCing my own barrels with perfect install.
I plan to revisit on this build as I appreciate the R hops ability to have long lasting 'applied' hop, IE flat hop is real good but the bucking always wear fast.

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Good point on the pneumatics btw! Agreed, sometimes you have to remember the simple solution is always most reliable.

[Hangtight]

Re: Motors...16:1...

I spent a while messing around with BASRs (still do) and found that different cylinder /barrel ratios give different efficiencies with different BB weights. On an AOE corrected AEG a full cylinder gives the right ratio for 0.36g ammo with a 310-320mm barrel. My 350fps guns use 280-300mm barrels with a port that reduces the effective cylinder volume by around 15mm for the correct ratio to suit 0.28g BBs. I'm actually having to make my guns a little less efficient since my local field started measuring muzzle energy with the ammo you're using, rather than just fps with 0.2g BBs.
If you're sticking to 350fps and full auto, with the idea of maybe going semi only later, then either 22 or 28TPA will work well, but I'd still tend towards the 22TPA/10.44:1/7.4V, based on knowing how well 16TPA /13.65:1/7.4v works, even pulling an M120 spring. But I can't afford Siegetek gears...not if i want Titans in my guns!
The R hop is a bit of a waste of time unless you're using 0.28g ammo and above, but seeing as that's the weight I use in my 350fps guns I do it as a matter of course. I make my own patches from EPDM 6mm bore auto hose (£3/m) which gives excellent results. I get a measured effective range of around 65m+. The BBs carry further but the accuracy is gone by that point. Watching people thinking, "Nah, he's never going to hit us from ther.... Bloody hell!", just doesn't wear thin. :D

[sparrowhawk]

Re: Motors...16:1...

Check out airsoft mechanic forum, this is the home of the men from r-hop, BTC and seigetec, so you could possibly buy direct from seigetec and get his gears, which have a lifetime guarantee

[Sprint]

Re: Motors...16:1...

Is it just me or is that forum dead? Are you active on there Sparrowhawk?
Tried to register but no response, looked like a good knowledge base from the outside.

[Hangtight]

Re: Motors...16:1...

I've tried getting on there, but my application never got approved.

[Sprint]

Re: Motors...16:1...

Yeh that seems to be the general consensus.

I like how earlier you said i cant afford to put Siegetek's in my GUNS plural! Not suprising lol! Ive had a big thin out and am hoping to be happy with a nice top level AEG and my always fun P226

[sj_asc]

Re: Motors...16:1...

For reference to the original question, Unlike the SHS sets, the Lonex high speed gear set actually closer replicates that of the Prometheus HS layout and the ratio is actually 16.46:1, but unless you are buying that or the Promy set, you would be wasting your money with the SHS, supershooter, ZCI sets if you were looking for a lower ratio. With that said however, SHS, nor Lonex or Prometheus HS sets are particualrly dependable when it comes to reliability. The best options here are a hybrid solution (bevel gear), or the RiotSC sets (siegetek).

The basics for better trigger response are mostly as discussed, but in addition to pre-cocking trickery, another key factor is maintaining low resistance throughout the enitire wiring loom - for instance, if you have 16, or even 14awg wire fitted, ensure that this runs throughout (cheap motor connectors and tamiyas are the bottleneck). If you can get away with soldering the motor connectors then that is ideal. MOSFET is pretty much essential, in addition to efficiency, for longevity of the switch contacts when switching the higher currents that most HT motors draw.

On top of this and equally as importantly, for optimal startup times, ensure that your battery pack can sustain the peak current draw of the motor (16T is typically over 100a for a split second), a crude Lipo pack will suffer a very severe voltage spike under this kind of load. The severity and the speed of that recovery of this is key to faster startup - A large pack with a high C rating, preferably something for the RC market is ideal. I personally would avoid the LiFePO packs because of this - its better to select an armature config for your desired output for the available LiPO pack voltages rather than to opt for a higher voltage pack with a largely inferior drain rating (and that is also with lower peak current draw of slower motors considered!)

I would completely rule out the ASG 18K unless you are going over to 3S.

For piston rating, I will add to the recommendation of the ICS POM, or Prometheus Hard with weight reduction. Laylax Red, or even the supercore which is much better are both a fair bit heavier, and with UK limits considered, it wouldnt be ideal for such heavy pistons at higher cycle rates with only UK legal springs to keep them in time - Cylinder port trickery only goes so far!.

As for FET recommendation, if you want just a simple high power FET, then the basic one from firestorm systems will give you close to the same power delivery without the advanced functions, otherwise of the computer controlled FETs, the BTC is still top of its game (count out availability!).

As for ASM, anyone having trouble, drop me a PM and i will get it sorted.

[Hangtight]

Re: Motors...16:1...

I'm a hoarder! Plus I really enjoy the whole process of planning, acquisition and execution. Especially once you start building real one offs, like my AK bullpup.





Sorry, showing off! But getting to the field, opening the case and knowing that no one else is going to have the same gun... love it. Especially if they perform too.

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For reference to the original question, Unlike the SHS sets, the Lonex high speed gear set actually closer replicates that of the Prometheus HS layout and the ratio is actually 16.46:1, but unless you are buying that or the Promy set, you would be wasting your money with the SHS, supershooter, ZCI sets if you were looking for a lower ratio. With that said however, SHS, nor Lonex or Prometheus HS sets are particualrly dependable when it comes to reliability. The best options here are a hybrid solution (bevel gear), or the RiotSC sets (siegetek).

The basics for better trigger response are mostly as discussed, but in addition to pre-cocking trickery, another key factor is maintaining low resistance throughout the enitire wiring loom - for instance, if you have 16, or even 14awg wire fitted, ensure that this runs throughout (cheap motor connectors and tamiyas are the bottleneck). If you can get away with soldering the motor connectors then that is ideal. MOSFET is pretty much essential, in addition to efficiency, for longevity of the switch contacts when switching the higher currents that most HT motors draw.

On top of this and equally as importantly, for optimal startup times, ensure that your battery pack can sustain the peak current draw of the motor (16T is typically over 100a for a split second), a crude Lipo pack will suffer a very severe voltage spike under this kind of load. The severity and the speed of that recovery of this is key to faster startup - A large pack with a high C rating, preferably something for the RC market is ideal. I personally would avoid the LiFePO packs because of this - its better to select an armature config for your desired output for the available LiPO pack voltages rather than to opt for a higher voltage pack with a largely inferior drain rating (and that is also with lower peak current draw of slower motors considered!)

For piston rating, I will add to the recommendation of the ICS POM, or Prometheus Hard with weight reduction. Laylax Red, or even the supercore which is much better are both a fair bit heavier, and with UK limits considered, it wouldnt be ideal for such heavy pistons at higher cycle rates with only UK legal springs to keep them in time - Cylinder port trickery only goes so far!.

As for FET recommendation, if you want just a simple high power FET, then the basic one from firestorm systems will give you close to the same power delivery without the advanced functions, otherwise of the computer controlled FETs, the BTC is still top of its game (count out availability!).

As for ASM, anyone having trouble, drop me a PM and i will get it sorted.

+1 for the Firestorm basic Mosfets. Small enough to fit pretty much anywhere and a tenner complete with decent Alpha Wire. Bargain.
I'll PM you about ASM. I take it you need user name/email address?

I've not had any SHS failures yet, but I take it you're suggesting a hybrid set up using gears from different manufacturers? Could you give any examples of combinations that give enhanced reliability when putting together 13:1(ish) sets, without costing the proverbial arm and half a leg?

[Sprint]

Re: Motors...16:1...

That AK is pretty sweet looking! Quiet a sleeper too I imagine!

Yeh every RIF I ever own gets an electrical make over as I'm I do Motorsport electrics for a living :D

My gear knowledge has grown a lot the last few days lol, thanks for clarification between different manufacturer versions of 16:1 sets. I would be interested in known hybrid gear sets for sure!

Interesting how Prometheus make the odd lemon parts, I would have thought their gear sets to be sound.
I'm building this up to last a loooong time hence wanting the best combined components to work in harmony not against each other!

Also interesting that I hadn't clocked the LiFe Packs lower sustained and peak discharge rates over most LiPo packs. I think LiPo failures are less common know, I don't know if that's mainly in part of people being generally better educated now or better quality packs, this was why I went over to LiFe a while ago as I didn't like the idea of a battery ruining my RIF or having a fault randomly occur whilst connected for a long time during 24hr game for example.