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  • Motors...16:1...

    Hi, looking for some guidance from experience gained from similar setups please.

    Looking at buying a complete Lonex box running 16:1, motor makes on my radar are ZCI, SHS & Lonex but am open to suggestions, figure at least running a Lonex pinion makes sense for mesh.

    The main problem I've got is do I go high torque or a torquey/speed motor to get decent trigger response?

    I'm on the fence because I'd naturally go high torque on a 13:1 and speed on an 18:1.

    I could mix it up on voltage, 7.4, 9.9 or 11.1

    I've done high torque / 16:1 / 11.1, that was too fast personally for ROF.

    TBH I've gone round in circles thinking about it and need someone to step back and say! 😁

  • #2
    Re: Motors...16:1...

    16:1 gears aren't actually 16:1. They're 17.28:1 which when you consider that 18:1 gears are actually 18.72:1 means they make bugger all difference in real terms.
    What rates of fire are you after? What spring are you using. Is trigger response important? Mostly semi auto or do you like to let rip on full auto?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Motors...16:1...

      That's interesting I hadn't considered the actual ratio of claimed 16:1 but thought it was a lot closer than you have just pointed out, i was aiming for a much higher ratio!

      Trigger response is most important, 90% of my play is semi.

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      • #4
        Re: Motors...16:1...

        In which case, 13:1 gears, 16TPA motor (SHS Hi torque, Rocket Airsoft Hi Torque or ASG CNC 30k if you want something shinier, but they'll all do the job perfectly well), 7.4v lipo, decent 16awg wiring, Deans connectors and a basic Mosfet. Proper shimming and angle of engagement adjustment. That'll get you snappy trigger response and around 22rps, and you'll be able to spam the trigger as fast as you like without stressing the motor. Depending on the base gun you might want to consider a better piston. The ICS POM piston and head its my go to, but the SHS half rack is fine for M100/110 springs.
        If you want ultimate trigger response then add a BTC Chimera or Spectre, or Gate Titan to that list and use the pre cocking function.

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        • #5
          Re: Motors...16:1...

          Thanks, it made the decision making much easier actually once you pointed out that 16:1 is nigh on 18:1!

          Staying on gears, I've used the old gen SHS before and thought the tooth cut although strong wasn't great for mesh / noise, of the latest available gears which have been found to have the nicest mesh? Is the SHS gen 4 tooth profile improved or is it only reliability improvements that have been made?
          Again on my radar are SHS, Lonex, Siegetek & Prometheus.

          I'm glad you mentioned the Chimera / Titan boards, I've not ventured there yet but am certainly enticed!
          I know the BTC products have a good rep but are generally out of stock, any experience and hind sight on these boards?
          I've not used a pre-cocked setup yet or even seen one at a game in use, I like the prospect of instant firing followed by re-cocking... I can see that being a massive response adder for sure.
          One feature I was dubious of is running without an ARL or cut off lever, sounds like a lot of AB work and heat input no?

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          • #6
            Re: Motors...16:1...

            I've got SHS gears running with SHS, Rocket Airsoft, ZCI and ASG motors and they're all absolutely fine, although the ASG is a bit more sensitive to motor height adjustment. A cheap power meter is a good idea for fine tuning the motor height and getting the best mesh. The only motor I've used that is a bit noisy is a Lonex A1 Supreme, but I don't think much of that motor anyway so it lives in my loan gun.
            Is just finished a build with a Chimera in a V3 gearbox and it's awesome. In an AK there's plenty of room to hide the actual control unit /Mosfet, and the trigger board is easy to fit although the selector switch is a bit vulnerable when getting the selector plate function correct. The Chimera has a switch that rides on the cutoff lever cam so it always knows where the sector gear is, and with a 13:1/16TPA /7.4v setup there is virtually no over spin so leave the AB turned off. If you want to use the pre cocking you leave the ARL in.
            Is just ordered a V2 Titan because the BTC are out of stock which is supposed to fit straight into a G&P gearbox and has the advantage of being a single unit that fits completely inside the gearbox shell. If anything it offers even more functionality than the BTC, but I've heard tell that there have been issues with odd functioning although that seems to have been resolved with the latest firmware. We shall see!
            I thought the trigger response was good on my builds until I got the Chimera, but now it's insane. The first time you actually turn it on it'll make you jump, then grin like an idiot. Combined with a good trigger set up it completely changes the feel of the gun, to the point that I'm now building a DMR when once I said I'd never bother.

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            • #7
              Re: Motors...16:1...

              Thank you very informative, cleared a lot of my doubts and functionality questions!

              The last couple of paragraphs make me very keen for the build and the gameplay!

              Cheers, it's so nice to get educated feedback!

              - - - Updated - - -

              How are you checking motor height with a meter, amp clamp / current draw or voltage across the motor?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Motors...16:1...

                I adjust the motor height to get a full mesh when I build and shim using a vernier /caliper gauge to measure the distance from the gearbox grip mounting face to the edge of the bevel gear, then transferring this to the height of the pinion sticking out of the motor grip. The bevel is then shimmed to the correct clearance. Once the box is together I use a cheap RC power meter that connects between the battery and the gun to make the last small adjustments, usually half a turn one way or the other, not more than one full turn. If it needs more than one you did something wrong with the shimming.

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                • #9
                  Re: Motors...16:1...

                  Handy bit of kit that! I've been reading around, looking to push the boat out, I want real nice tooth profile and am erring on Siegetek SSG V2 10.44.

                  Any experience on these? Wondering if I should match with a Siegetek pinion.

                  Motorwise thinking of stepping up slightly to the ASG ultimate 16 TPA with the intention of better QC and cooler running.

                  I want this to run smooth as, and quiet as, along with trigger action to make me happy to have jumped ship from my GBB hordes :D

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Motors...16:1...

                    I've not got any experience with Siegetek gears, or any ratios higher than 13:1. With 10.44:1/16TPA /7.4v you're starting to get towards 30rps and possible pre engagement on a full stroke M100 build. A better choice would be a 22TPA motor with 10.44:1 gears and 7.4v that should get you to around 19-20rps.
                    With 13:1/16TPA /7.4v your motor will run cool, so 10.44:1/22TPA /7.4V shouldn't break a sweat. My choice would be an ASG CNC 18K.
                    The nicest running motor I have is an ASG CNC 30K (16TPA) . Well made and engineered with a properly balanced armature. Is also a perfect fit in a PTS EPG motor grip which also gives enough space to solder short leads direct to the terminals which can then be connected to the loom with 4mm gold plated RC motor connectors. 100% reliable with very low resistance.
                    The SHS and ZCI motors aren't quite as smooth, but it's like tasting wine... if no one told you, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Motors...16:1...

                      Like the analogy! Yes I realised what I had written then thought idiot, PE! Run some calls and I like the 22tpa solution, nowhere has stock of Siegetek 14.09s, that's the problem when people make good things.... they sell out!
                      Seriously thank you for your input it's much appreciated!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Motors...16:1...

                        No problem. It makes a change from, "I fitted an upgrade part and now my gun is worse...", and my particular favourite, "I messed around with something I don't understand and now it's broken. Help."

                        And if you want a nice piston to go in this build, get yourself an ICS POM half rack piston and head. If you can find one! Like you said, decent gear sells out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Motors...16:1...

                          I was plumping for Lonex red piston (as a failsafe component in the box) or a Prommy hard.

                          Matching piston heads my initial thought but intrigued by the Retro Arms double ring? Looks good on paper (2 O-rings) although I would guess AOE / sorbo space would get eaten up by the extra thickness of the piston head?

                          I take it you meant the 22k not 18k earlier?

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          What'd you think would run cooler (all based on 10.44) 7.4 / 22tpa or 9.9 / 28tpa? I would think the latter would give me the quietest setup as least motor turns occurring.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Motors...16:1...

                            Yep, got myself tied in a knot. I was trying to say that a 22TPA motor would be my choice, and I know Brill Armouries in the US do an ASG 22TPA, but a quick poke of Google turned up the ASG 18K and I didn't bother checking the details. But the 19rps on the 18k is about right. I'd go for the 22TPA for the slightly higher ROF (~23rps) for almost no extra heat, slightly quicker cycle time... The 28TPA just seems overkill on an M100 spring.
                            As far as noise goes the higher load /lower speed will probably make about the same amount of noise as the lower load /higher speed, but the quality of the sound will change. I couldn't honestly say that my ASG set up is any quieter than my SHS set ups. Is all down to the shimming. The ASG is a bit more refined, and it was quiet from the start whereas the SHS sort of 'wore in'.
                            Even with the 13:1/16TPA /7.4v I can spam the trigger on semi auto and the motor barely warms up. Any of the combinations you've listed will be so low stressed they might as well be sitting on the beach, getting a massage while drinking cocktails.

                            Lonex red is good, but heavy. The double O ring on the Retro Arms head is just added drag. I like the ICS ones because they're inexpensive, very well designed and made from an incredibly tough material. There's no bells or whistles, no hype, they're just the right tool for the job.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Motors...16:1...

                              I was going to junk the ballrace from the Lonex piston, pretty sure it has one?? Il have a hunt around for the ICS piston for sure.

                              Was going to up the voltage on the 28tpa so ROF should be same as lower voltage 22tpa :/
                              Decisions decisions, what would work out quieter, it's probably negligible!

                              I think the extra drag of the Retro head could play into my hands as it could potentially give a better / more consistent seal as well as a smooth delivery of air for a nice 'acceleration' of the BB rather than 'kick' out of the barrel.
                              That is if it's not a piece of poo??

                              I'm into this build for one shot one kill stalking.

                              Been a good days research!

                              Comment

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