Taclights: Strobe or not?

[KaRcop]

Yeah I do think it's worth the marshals asking and I'm not saying I'm unwilling to not use it if somebody with known issues is playing.

I don't mean that if somebody is photosensitive then they shouldn't be allowed to play CQB. On the contrary, I don't think it's the right of a site to refuse entry to them. However, I would encourage anyone who knows that they are putting themselves and the fun of others and the peace of mind of the marshals/ owner at risk to please play it safe and not attend a game where you are likely to be exposed to flashing lights that will put your health at risk. Is that an unreasonable thing to ask?

But also, as I said, I'd like to get to the bottom of this idea that there is some kind of statistical likelihood that strobing for a couple of seconds or less greatly reduces the risk of a seizure. I know of the 10 second limit in clubs (having DJed) but don't know the details of these statistics...

[donkonious]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

But also, as I said, I'd like to get to the bottom of this idea that there is some kind of statistical likelihood that strobing for a couple of seconds or less greatly reduces the risk of a seizure. I know of the 10 second limit in clubs (having DJed) but don't know the details of these statistics...

It's been a while since I had to do anything on the subject, so my exact figures may be out of date, however when I was first diagnosed this is what I was told:

Every one who is photosensitive has a frequency limit ie the amount of flashes per second they can tolerate without having a seizure.

Some people's threshold is very low, whereas there are others who can withstand a very high frequency for an extended period without incident.
Now, with everyone who suffers epileptic seizures and has been diagnosed, they will know that the brain requires binocular vision during flashing lights to trigger the seizure; so if you find yourself in the situation where a strobe light is being used, by covering one eye you can prevent the brain's random firing of synapsis.

The time limit for strobe lights in clubs is such that only someone with ludicrously low tolerances would experience a seizure... I think I remember reading that there's a frequency limit in clubs, but don't remember the exact figure.

In all honesty the chance of someone with epilepsy having a full blown seizure from being on the receiving end of a tactical strobe I'd reckon to be pretty low; it's just one of those 'discussions' that'll go around and around...

I'd just reiterate that if I wasn't aware someone would be using them (I didn't even know they existed until reading this thread!), I'd be pretty uncomfortable.
If I'd made my condition abundantly aware (vecro patch on my admin panel usually does the trick anyway), and told the marshals yet some arse stuck one in my face, I'd be pretty pissed.

[bongooldchap]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

and told the marshals yet some arse stuck one in my face, I'd be pretty pissed.

#

Yes but what did the marshall tell you once you told him?

Its down to you to stay away from an area where a strobe is likely to be used. Unless you are taking about 'some arse' literally sticking one in your face from about 6 inches or so and then holding it there? You could try suing and good luck with that now that youve read this thread and know of the potential hazards involved in this game. However point noted and Ill make sure its covered in the safety brief for future use.

The best I can do is understand your medical problem and advise you on the places where its unsafe or risky for you to go. Otherwise its a long slippery slope down to banning bbs because weve got one hemopheoliac on site.

[taskforceblack]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

There seems to be a lot of fuss around this subject, most of the views against strobe use appear to be from individuals who dont seem to grasp what cqb is about!
CQB room clearance in the real world is deadly and would be avoided at all costs! If a 3 man team attempted to enter an average sized room to deal with an armed person expecting the assault the team would be wiped no question!! Therefore a room would only be assaulted following a distraction/ flashbang! real flashbangs will totally disorientate any one in the room with multi bang bright flashes of light and 160db bang, then and only then would the team enter.
This is airsoft and unless you have the budget to throw a bang into each room as you clear then a strobe torch could be the answer.
In summary cqb room clearance with only one or two doors into the room is impossible without distractions of some sort, end of!
I love the one from the guy who says rely on trigger speed!!! I want to meet him, If he thinks he can enter a room of unknown size and shape,no knowledge of room or furniture,cover hostiles etc,go through a doorway which is targeted by the hostile, Scan all the room,pick out a hostile get on aim and take him out with trigger speed before he is rinsed by 100 rounds!!! He needs to stop watching movies and taking those pink tablets lol

[balaclava ben]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

basically all this comes to is,
- People with epilepsy tell the marshalls
- People using a strobe tell the marchalls
- Be considerate with the strobe

[seansamurai1]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

There is some sense coming out now, with a fellow airsofter who suffers with epilepsy has backed up the timing statement and someone who works in a nightclub and must be conversant with the rules and regs to play there. As for the strobes themselves, I spent 2 years playing nothing but tunnel work CQB (dark and dank) and nearly everyone had strobes, ranging from 120 lumens all the way to 900lumens, it was given in the safety brief that strobes are being used if you have photosensitive then inform a marshal immediately. Now my experience with strobes, it has always been short bursts, just enough to get you to look away or go back to cover, so really no more than 2 seconds, but some seem to think that its too much of a risk, look into injuries and ailments caused by airsoft I can guarantee that broken teeth is higher up the scale than an epileptic fit induced by strobes, Id say broken bones (from a fall or trip) is higher, twisted and sprained ankles is higher, even burns from bad pyro/mishandled pyro is definitely higher up the list, so if a strobe is too dangerous, then the choice is ban strobes but you have to ban pyro too as that can be very dangerous, or you can head back to a padded room, cocoon yourself in bubble rap and never come out again for fear of everyday risks, driving to the site is more dangerous than strobes.
I also agree with the fact us strobe users do have to be careful when using them incase of and issue, which personally I think there is a higher probability of someone banging their head from disorientation than keeling over and having a seizure, but as airsofters we all have to look after each other in everything we do, a duty of care so to speak, but if you don’t like them that’s your choice, I personally love them, if someone gets me with a strobe then fair dos. But outright putting this useful tool down because someone may have got you with one in the past or because you don’t like the fact it gives someone an advantage you don’t like is just plain pathetic and maybe paintball should be the next choice hobby because it doesn’t base itself on real world equipment and tactics (not aimed at anyone in particular, just my rant).

[palmer234]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

Announce that you are using a strobe in a briefing. If someone has epilepsy, don't use it.

Personally i use mine a LOT. Gives a huge distraction when clearing corridors and rooms.

[balaclava ben]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

There is some sense coming out now, with a fellow airsofter who suffers with epilepsy has backed up the timing statement and someone who works in a nightclub and must be conversant with the rules and regs to play there. As for the strobes themselves, I spent 2 years playing nothing but tunnel work CQB (dark and dank) and nearly everyone had strobes, ranging from 120 lumens all the way to 900lumens, it was given in the safety brief that strobes are being used if you have photosensitive then inform a marshal immediately. Now my experience with strobes, it has always been short bursts, just enough to get you to look away or go back to cover, so really no more than 2 seconds, but some seem to think that its too much of a risk, look into injuries and ailments caused by airsoft I can guarantee that broken teeth is higher up the scale than an epileptic fit induced by strobes, Id say broken bones (from a fall or trip) is higher, twisted and sprained ankles is higher, even burns from bad pyro/mishandled pyro is definitely higher up the list, so if a strobe is too dangerous, then the choice is ban strobes but you have to ban pyro too as that can be very dangerous, or you can head back to a padded room, cocoon yourself in bubble rap and never come out again for fear of everyday risks, driving to the site is more dangerous than strobes.
I also agree with the fact us strobe users do have to be careful when using them incase of and issue, which personally I think there is a higher probability of someone banging their head from disorientation than keeling over and having a seizure, but as airsofters we all have to look after each other in everything we do, a duty of care so to speak, but if you don’t like them that’s your choice, I personally love them, if someone gets me with a strobe then fair dos. But outright putting this useful tool down because someone may have got you with one in the past or because you don’t like the fact it gives someone an advantage you don’t like is just plain pathetic and maybe paintball should be the next choice hobby because it doesn’t base itself on real world equipment and tactics (not aimed at anyone in particular, just my rant).

Well said sir!
personally i have only been shot after being strobed, i may be an exception but if i was holding a room and it was stormed, i was strobed, ran into a wall/object and got peppered from point plank i would shout many explitives but would be in fits of giggles! people moaning about being strobed because it gives others an advantage really need to grow a pair, and a decent pair at that...

[bongooldchap]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

1 in 131 of people suffer from epilepsy, of those only 5% will suffer from photosensitive epilepsy and have a seizure, a really low number by any standards, a more common trigger is stress and lack of sleep

I ran a nightclub for 2 years, that happy hardcore stuff, lots of strobing, on for hours, no fits at all

[mishy]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

i feel that people should air on the side of caution here. leaving a strobe on for longer than say 10sec is not only pointless but potentially dangerous. I think that cqb sites shouldn't ban them but should at least mention them in safety briefs, and make say a reasonable use rule as in not just walking around with the strobe on permanently only to be used in bursts.

no one here has said they should be banned out right just that responsibility needs to be taken when using one. i used to suffer from epilepsy at a younger age from about 8-13, and honestly a seizure is not a nice experience at all. So if someone that has photosensitive seizures is on site then these, imo, easy to implement measure should prevent them suffering.
its very arrogant to say no i want to run around strobing everything all the time. Migraines are horrible, someone here has posted these cause him to have them. this is yet another reason not to be strobing people willy nilly

[seansamurai1]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

1 in 131 of people suffer from epilepsy, of those only 5% will suffer from photosensitive epilepsy and have a seizure, a really low number by any standards, a more common trigger is stress and lack of sleep

I ran a nightclub for 2 years, that happy hardcore stuff, lots of strobing, on for hours, no fits at all

So what you are saying then mate, is I have more of a chance of being hit by a car in the carpark than I do of causing an unfortunate soul to go down in a fit whilst Im using a strobe?!
That pretty much sums up the issue here, there is no real issue!

The used only in short bursts has been mentioned, and in fairness they do, most sites that are dark CQB orientated do normally mention that people will have bright lights and bright strobes in use and as for mentioning it to a marshall, Im sure it will be a case of "who has a strobe? Put your hands up" at the brief as Im pretty sure 30 plus people going up individualy and saying they have a strobe will get boring quite quickly.
What I find strange overall though is out of the quite possibly well into the thousands of people Iv met (whether talked to or not, cut it to hundreds for people talked to for a length of time rather than passing comment) the only people who seem to loath or detest strobing taclights is a handful of people on this forum. The people Iv met/spoken too have either never owned one but think they are great as a tool or own one and wont go anywhere without it. On a lighter note it does remind me of the guy who had one at CSW and decided to strobe me at 30m in broad daylight and wondered why I didnt flinch.
Also at my regular site, a lad who had a mini maglight taped onto his AEG (he had the maglight push button mod on the back), which is OK, its not the brightest but useful for seeing in very dark areas, so we both walked into a corridor, him at one end me at the other, he saw me and shone his maglight at me to try and distract me, so I returned the favour with 320lumens of bright white light, he actually screamed then jumped behind cover and shouting at me "I feel really rather inferior now" in a sheepish voice, I couldnt help but laugh really, nor could he for that matter. (just to lighten the mood in here)
If strobes and bright taclights bother you, then

[caffin999]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

having never come across one I didn't realise they were so common...

I think I need one now. gotta be one of the cool kids

[seansamurai1]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

I wouldnt say you need one, but they are useful and do exactly what it says on the tin, and can give you maybe an extra second and a half reaction time.
But if you want one I can recomend the OLight M20 warrior there is a couple of versions of it, 1 with a button for strobe and one with normal selection.
Its about 320 out the front lumens with 3 power settings and a tactical strobe, a pressure switch is easily found for them and they fit inside scope rings (25mm body) so you dont really need to buy a specialist mount, I got mine in a packedge deal, came with pressure switch, a scope mount (mounting torch hunter style) which I use on my shotgun as the feed tube is 25mm round handily, it uses 2 CR123 batteries and I havent had to change mine yet and that 5 months regular skirmishing and a couple of shed clearouts too, they do accept rechargable CR123s so it although costs more at first will pay for itself after 4 charges.

[LazyMcCrazy]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

I think these devices are incredibly affective. I don't own one but i have been on the receiving end and instantly wanted one.
My team was advancing down a corridor whilst the opponents stayed quite, as we got closer it was turned on and we got peppered lmao. Cracking if used tactical like this.

I do however think there should be a 5 second activation rule on them as when you see folk walking round with them on all the time, it started to grind on me.

At my site (phoenix CQB) if someone has a strobe they tell a marshal then the epileptic question is asked to all in briefing.

[archangel]

Re: Taclights: Strobe or not?

A simple google search answers all questions....

From the Wikipedia article on strobe lights

"Most strobe lights on sale to the public are factory-limited to about 10-12 flashes per second in their internal oscillators, although externally triggered strobe lights will often flash as frequently as possible. At a frequency of 10 Hz, 65% of affected people are still at risk. The British Health and Safety Executive recommend that a net flash rate for a bank of strobe lights does not exceed 5 flashes per second, at which only 5% of photosensitive epileptics are at risk. It also recommends that no strobing effect continue for more than 30 seconds, due to the potential for discomfort and disorientation."

As mentioned earlier, this deosnt really seem to be a major issue.... you are at more risk from pyro burns, hearing damage from BFG's and BB damage than you would for an undiagnosed case of photo sensitive epilepsy

Later daze

Lee