A discussion with quoted legislation?

[Fenrisianspirit]

Hey guys, so I seem to have gotten into some hot water with my society given some heated debate over whether or not UKARA is a legal requirement to purchase RIFs, now this site and others have made it clear that this is not the case, that a defence is needed and UKARA is simply one skirmishing defence.

I've read through the VCRA again and found nothing about airsoft in itself, which means I'm finding it difficult to back up my claim against two law students so if anyone could quote the relevant items for me and perhaps expand on them a little it'd be great.

Cheers.

[B.E.N.]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

UKARA IS NOT the only means of making yourself a defensible owner of a RIF, although arguably it is the easiest and most traceable manner of doing so.

[Fenrisianspirit]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

UKARA IS NOT the only means of making yourself a defensible owner of a RIF, although arguably it is the easiest and most traceable manner of doing so.

I know that, you know that, a lot of the forum guys know that but these lads are deadset that they're correct, that UKARA is the only legal way to sell barring being at a site on Skirmish day.

And well, now they're making me look like I'm being stupid and deliberately argumentative but I just want the truth out there. The group also mention UKARA being a license (which again its not).

But two of these guys are lawyers in training, and have allegedly discussed this with qualified lawyers, hence me wanting something concrete. Especially as these guys are/were committee members for the society and also have a bearing on team selection (if I've not already upset them enough...).

[Teufelhunden]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

Can you just confrim for me that they are saying that UKARA is the only legal way to purchase a rif ?

[B.E.N.]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

Your two lawyer friends are very wrong. UKARA is not a license and has, at present, no legal standing. UKARA membership has no precident in court and has never been used as a legal defence for RIF ownership.

[tackle]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

But two of these guys are lawyers in training, and have allegedly discussed this with qualified lawyers.

i'll "allege" that these guys are a couple of numpties who know nothing, & that the qualified lawyers mentioned know next to nothing about specific defence applicable to airsofters only.
as the saying goes "dazzle 'em with brains or baffle them with bullshit", i reckon they settled on the latter, hoping that their feeble credentials as lawyers in training (aka students), will impress you enough not to doubt their knowledge........or lack of it lol.
point them in the direction of this thread, & i suggest you learn to use the search button on this or any other reputable forum as there are many many threads questioning & explaining the reasonable defences available to airsofters.
Mark

Edit:
blimey Fenrisianspirit, you've got over 350 posts & your asking these kinda questions ?.....dude, sort it out !.

[B.E.N.]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

[Aitch]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

Tell them to join the forum and do the research themselves,
Point out the r in UKARA means retailer, only a site membership is required to purchase RIFs as most of us non lawyery types know, if site membership alone is good enough for UK Customs it's good enough for us,
Does the amendment doc that states our defence not on here? seeing airsoft has no mention in the VCRA?

[Teufelhunden]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

indeed very wrong. im 90% Re-enactor and % airsofter, I use my membership to the society (in this case NARES) to purchase rif's. even from airsoft shops.

I was interested in B.E.N.'s Glock (lovely as it was) and i said I have an alternative defence.

theres a website i bet they are getting there information from - and its totally wrong, UKARA is biased towartds retailers its BS

from the home office

"Section 37 provides various defences to the new offence. It makes it a defence to show that the manufacture,importation, sale or modification was only for the purpose making the realistic imitation firearm availble for :

a museum or gallery

theatrical performances and rehearsals of such performances

the production of films and television programmes

the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments

crown servant

The regulations provide for two NEW defences. The first is for the organisation and holding of airsoft skirmishing. this is defined by reernce to "permitted Activities" and the defence only applies where third party liability insurance is held in respect of the activities. The second new defence is for the purpose of display at arms fairs, defined in the regulations by reference to "permitted events"

Bascially they need to read the facts which

Basicially airsoft is a "permitted Activity"

[seansamurai1]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

Dont even need membership
Just need to prove that you play the minimum required amount on an insured site. In theory I could turn up to customs or even send them an email of photo ID and a load of photographs of me playing, a phone number to the site organiser to back it up, that in theory ticks the criteria for reasonable defence. However, I doubt customs would accept that without some serious talking around and paragraph pointing on the .Gov website.

[Fenrisianspirit]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

Can you just confrim for me that they are saying that UKARA is the only legal way to purchase a rif ?

Like this?

Edit:
blimey Fenrisianspirit, you've got over 350 posts & your asking these kinda questions ?.....dude, sort it out !.

Mate, I know the law, what I wanted was a nice quoted piece of legislation (having read and reread the VCRA for mention of airsoft) that showed UKARA isn't the only way to legally purchase RIFs, I know it isn't but how? Basically I wanted an excuse to shout: "Lawyered" at them.

The main issue here is these guys are my Team Captain, Ex President and the Secretary of the society.

[madwelshman]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

then you need a different society! lol

Also the link Ben supplied is a bit outdated, the vcra was "cleaned up in 2007" and most of the waffle was removed, regards to "theatrical, museum ect ect" they basically cut it ALL out, and reworded it to

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/3/made

Which in a nutshell condenses it all down to two defenses...

(2) Those purposes are—

(a)the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities;

(b)the purposes of display at a permitted event.

The First affects us as airsofters, as the defense is that we own, to participate in a permitted activity (airsoft) for which public liability insurance is held(by the site you play at) in relation to liabilities to third parties(covering someone getting hurt) arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities(so basically, the site needs Airsoft insurance );

Now this covers everyone, you can delete my bold entries and insert a Regimental museum, the film industry, re-enactment ect ect, no need to list them all, so they just reworded it to cover all bases.

What this means to us? not much, as a shop will still ask you to prove you have a defense... UKARA is still the easiest, secondly, a valid membership card to a site, an email from a site owner ect... its all the retailer needs to sell you a rif, its YOUR responsibility, once you then own a RIF, to be able to prove to authorities, if challenged, that you have a defense against section 36 of the VCRA.

If you have no defense, you are in the poo, and logically, the Police should then visit the seller, find out why they sold to someone with no defense... if it transpires that the buyer fraudulently gave a defense, then your deeper in the doo doo! if the shop didn't check, then hopefully, the cops should charge the retailer too

[loki7491]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

All UKARA is is a database for the retailers so they can swiftly check a industry specific and legal defence. As a player, UKARA has no bearing on your life what-so-ever in terms of law - it just makes your life easier due to ignorance of the law.

Without going into the details, i was involved in a project that would see airsoft guns put into "air weapon" and "section 5" catagories (for government officials, not for by mate, Dave)

I was in email debate with the HOME OFFICE because even they were unsure of how to correctly apply the VCRA to regular airsoft weapons, let alone how to help me get all the necessary paperwork to do this project! The Home Office wrote the bloody rules and no bugger there understands it!

In short, your two aquaintances are ignorant douche bags! get them to read this... in particular point 6.

http://www.nio.gov.uk/the_violent_cr...tions_2007.pdf

[loki7491]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

Scuppered by Madwelshman....

Also, pleas remind these two legal eagles that the vast majority of their job is research - as these two are clearly inept at it i'd like their names, so i NEVER end up with those as my counsel should i ever need it!

[madwelshman]

Re: A discussion with quoted legislation?

your link's dead, and leads to The Northern Ireland Office... lol