Buying without UKARA

[Gadge Europa]

Re: Buying without UKARA

I didnt really mean it like that, i meant that it seems *mental* that someone genuinely into airsofting has to jump through hoops but if i dress up as a centurion on Sundays I can just walk into a shop and buy whatever i like. (I'm simplifying)

My point being is that the re-enactor defence in the above case is clearly being misused. What possible use could a roman or dark ages re-enactor have for an MP40 (lets be generous and say they have bought a pretty 'historical' AEG), they are however exploiting the fact that they can do this to enjoy a totally different hobby whereas your genuine skirmisher has to fork out about £75 quid in green fees over three events they pay their £15 insurance subs to their group for the year

seems a little unfair to me... i mean don't get me wrong i *am* a re-enactor and i run two groups (WWII and Cold War) but i think if we're going to have a system it should be a fair an rational one and it shouldnt cost the man interested in the *hobby* four times as much to legally buy as it does the guy buying one for backyard plinking

Trust me, their *are* serious loopholes in the system and some genuine back doors but as a responsible member of the industry I'm not going to post them on here.

[Gadge Europa]

Re: Buying without UKARA

Another example of 'crazy' in the system was at the National Shooting Show which the Airsoft Show piggy backed last year.

Lots of people on sports shooting sites amazed that despite being legally able to own a military calibre rifle they couldnt buy an airsoft gun because they were sporting shooters and had neither the re-enactor or skirmisher defence.

I mean if you can legally have a shotgun in your house you're not likely to want to do over a bank with a plastic electric pea shooter are you if you were that way inclined?

So in my opinion the current system just has a few too many 'wtf' elements to it and needs a serious rethink.

[smiffyraf1]

Re: Buying without UKARA

Agree with last poster. I myself feel ukara is a waste of time and in the end just another way to make money from the honest airsofter. No figures exist showing that its introduction has changed anything in regards to crime and if someone wants an airsoft rifle/pistol there are plenty of ways to do it although now it is probably easier to get a real fire arm. Despite my misgivings of this system if it is to be used it is high time all the bugs were ironed out like the example given above.

[Fizzy]

Re: Buying without UKARA

How's UKARA making money from airsofters? Many sites register your details on the database for free

[FireKnife]

Re: Buying without UKARA

How's UKARA making money from airsofters? Many sites register your details on the database for free

Actually it is more like 50/50. Most people don't seem to know that you can get a retailer to put you on the system without paying so long as you have a stamped and dated form.

Yet some places are still getting people to pay for 'memberships' to get UKARA and offering sod all for it (or a pathetic discount on their already overpriced goods).

Personally it should be offered to all for free and all should be made aware of the options to get it for free with site 'memberships' being optional extras with good incentives (free games, 50p of grenade bundles etc)

'FireKnife'

[N_Scooby]

Re: Buying without UKARA

The problem is this - we play with toy guns that look like the real thing. Shotguns have a purpose ie vermin disposal, clay shooting etc. and has legislation to cover it. Real steel has a purpose in target shooting and has its own set of rules and regulations. Air weapons have their own purpose, again vermin disposal and target shooting, with more legislation to cover them & even deactivated firearms for collectors have their own rules. What purpose does an airsoft gun have? (in the eyes of the Government officials that don't airsoft). They allow a very low % of the population to dress up as soldiers and run around woods on a Sunday. I'm sure if airsoft was banned more people would be behind a ban than were against it. UKARA is not perfect but it works for what it is and what it stands for. People on the database are proven regular skirmishers.

I would argue that it is the retailers that are at fault. Some retailers are obviously more worried about profits and sales today rather than the future of the industry that supports their livelihood. They are the ones that should not be selling M4's to Roman's in sandals or Kriss Vectors to German stormtroopers. It should be up to them to police themselves responsibly - which doesn't look like it is happening from other comments.

[smiffyraf1]

Re: Buying without UKARA

i know what your saying i really do. and i agree that like you said if their was a petition to stop airsoft the for's would well outweigh the against. my point is i don't think it ever really helped the sport if anything it made it harder for new people to start and enjoy it rather it put them off with all the hoops you have to jump through. I have shotties and a few air rifles and hypothetically for arguments sake if i was short of cash and inclined that way my airsoft guns would not get a look in at the tool of choice for nipping down the post office. (of course im not a mental, am in the forces and this would never even cross my mind, just making a point) what genuinely scares me is the air pistols that can me purchased just with proof of age that look and strip and recoil like real sigs etc. and with good aim good potentially kill someone. it just kind of blows the whole ukara thing out of the water in my eyes. its like the equivalent of making you obtain a pilots license to play a flight sim on the computer.
i dont necessarily agree that this country needs all the gun laws we do have, i dont think we should be like the states where every one carries including the hormonal kids going to school but its a shame we arnt more like say the channel isles. you dont hear of rampages happening there do you. im off track i know i just think airsoft controls in place currently were a knee jerk to a danger that does not exist anyway. criminals will always have access to real firearms.

[Fizzy]

Re: Buying without UKARA

it just kind of blows the whole ukara thing out of the water in my eyes. its like the equivalent of making you obtain a pilots license to play a flight sim on the computer.

Not in any way shape or form really. For a start, there is NO UKARA licence.The VCRA (which I presume is what you actually mean) was put in place to make it difficult for the average Joe Yob to obtain something that looked like a firearm, so he could go and hold up the local BP Garage, or wave it around in public, scaring the bejesus out of people.

It wasn't aimed at airsofters or airsoft retailers, it was aimed at market stalls and 'toy' shops selling realistic looking guns to anyone with the money, it's just that the decision that was made affected airsoft.

[smiffyraf1]

Re: Buying without UKARA

yes course it is vcra i mean. exactly though and i live in lincoln and regularly see market stalls on the coast and at boot sale events selling cheap tat RIFS with cops walking right by them, but you've just repeated my point, the average joe can still buy these but could also buy something a lot more lethal in an air pistol that is a RIF

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unfortunately it ONLY seems to be airsoft retailers that it has affected. my nephew was showing me what he wanted for his birthday few months back and was amazed to see a well known online book retailer selling RIF cap guns that look identical to the real thing. so thats what i mean when i say UKARA/VCRA is defunct

[smiffyraf1]

Re: Buying without UKARA

Actually it is more like 50/50. Most people don't seem to know that you can get a retailer to put you on the system without paying so long as you have a stamped and dated form.

Yet some places are still getting people to pay for 'memberships' to get UKARA and offering sod all for it (or a pathetic discount on their already overpriced goods).

Personally it should be offered to all for free and all should be made aware of the options to get it for free with site 'memberships' being optional extras with good incentives (free games, 50p of grenade bundles etc)

'FireKnife'

your right just had a google through a lot and it does seem 50/50 with many calling it an admin charge to submit your details to obtain a ukara number

[Gadge Europa]

Re: Buying without UKARA

Personally I'd be in favour of an 'air rifle licence' type system. You pay your £20 a year, the police know who you are and where you live and what you own.

If someone does something stupid with a fake mP5 they have a list of people who own one or may have had one stolen from them.

[smiffyraf1]

Re: Buying without UKARA

agreed
although you only need a license for an air gun if its over a certain power, cant remember what it is off the top of my head

[N_Scooby]

Re: Buying without UKARA

Personally I'd be in favour of an 'air rifle licence' type system. You pay your £20 a year, the police know who you are and where you live and what you own.

If someone does something stupid with a fake mP5 they have a list of people who own one or may have had one stolen from them.

I think if someone in authority saw how many RIF's were about they would have a fit! I keep seeing posts about how 'under-ground' airsoft is and how it needs to be more 'main-stream' - it just simply is not going to happen. Your average person when asked if RIF's should exist will say ban them. They just see something that looks like a gun and will think the idea of people dressing up as soldiers is stupid.

UKARA works (for me anyway). If you don't go to the same site at least 3 times in a year, are you a regular skirmisher? Should you be entitled to buy RIF's if you are not going to use them for what they are designed for?

[Gadge Europa]

Re: Buying without UKARA

I mean I'm no lawyer... but.

If you has a licence you get a couple of benefits straight away.

There is a revenue to the crown.. that might only be say a couple of hundred thousands from airsoft but once its a revenue its something they are less inclined to be rid of.
The police have a list of all 'mp5 replica owners' so if a crime takes place involving one they can find out if you've had yours stolen etc etc

Updating what's on your 'licence' might be a faff with regards to buying and selling but it would probably stop market traders selling cheap RIFs overnight though, or at least make it a hell of a lot harder.

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. If you don't go to the same site at least 3 times in a year, are you a regular skirmisher?

I never attend the same site more than three times a year tbh.

I have not for years. I tend to play about once a month and it's for one of these reasons.

1. I'm reviewing a site.. i may *never* go back there, especially if it's miles away
2. I'm playing a WWII, Cold War or Nam game hosted by a '3rd party' at someones site. I do this a *lot* and tend to play all over the country.

Now I've been doing the former for about six years and the latter for about eight. I've *probably* now been to some sites to qualify but a lot of people , and again friends of mine, crossing over from the LARP or Living History hobbies have *zero* interest in playing open days. They want to go to WWII weekenders or whatever two or three times a year.

At the moment unless they are , as mentioned, a re-enactor they have to spend about £75 quid playing 'ball tag' at open days before they can buy the tool to allow them to take part in the side of the hobby they want to.

Can you see how that might be a flaw in the system and annoying for some people?

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I'm sure the current system *does* work for you but it fails for a *lot* of people.

BTW 'ball tag' is used not as an insult but more to illustrate the point that hitting someone and placing them out the game is the focus of most open day games rather than more 'milsim' type objective and scenario based play that this group of players, and it's a sizable group, are after.

[N_Scooby]

Re: Buying without UKARA

I have a regular site that I am a member of. I visit that site at least 10 times a year (mainly when it is dry!) and visit probably another 6-8 different sites a year as well. UKARA is the perfect defence for me - it works and is recognised by customs, retailers and self-check.

Your friends who don't airsoft can join a re-enactors 'club' which is another form of defence. Whoever hosts these days will have insurance and should be able to sort some sort of membership out. The retailer should ring up for confirmation - and at this point is where they should morally check that the type of RIF they are selling is for re-enactment. If it is not then there is no defence.