Who to report VCRA violations to?

[Tokrund]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Sorry I've been overseas and haven't played air soft since about 2010 and am only just getting back into it and was under the impression that the VCRA had stricter far requirements than "Age and belief it will be used for permitted activities"

Has the home office changed the requirements? I thought you had to be able to prove you were a member of a Airsoft Site with 3rd party liability insurance?

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Hahahaha....... Yes, I am talking LEGAL and not UKARA GUIDELINES but as the OP wishes to contact either the Police or Trading Standards he is talking legalatity of sale as opposed to has the Retailer broken their terms and conditions of UKARA membership.

in which case what I wrote is correct.

Furthermore, a UKARA member retailer can still make sales without UKARA being the defence as not all players are UKARA members.

We have sketch information, but at worst the retailer will have broken UKARA guidelines if they tried to sign you up to the UKARA membership scheme without you having played your 3 games in what ever time frame it is. Unless that happened it is of no business of UKARA.

If the retailer believed you to be over 18 (they should check if there is ANY room for error) and they believed you were going to use the gun for skirmishing (VCRA section 37 is the applicable defence) then it would have been a perfectly legal sale.

[tackle]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

What I'm talking about is if the said retailer is not adhering to the vcra, then rather than Joe bloggs walking in off the street, extolling his "wisdom" in this matter, it would be more beneficial for a group/organization to have a chat.
It's just as likely that they've determined that op is a genuine player based upon their assumedly brief chat, & the then feel they've satisfied any legal issues ?.

[shotgun!]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Actually Bryan's comments are correct in that the VCRA states that to have a defence it must be used for permitted activities, of which airsoft is, so technically you could turn up to site, buy from the shop and use it in game.

I believe most retailers (but not all) think that's too risky

In the wording of the VCRA, any retailer that actually did this would be breaking the law. Hence why there was all the controversy over the NAE selling to people without defence.

- - - Updated - - -

'For airsoft skirmishing, the Association of British Airsoft is putting in place arrangements to allow retailers to check that individual purchasers are members of a genuine skirmishing club or site. The key elements of these arrangements are:

new players must play at least 3three times in a period of not less than two months the two months before being offered membership
membership cards with a photograph and recognized format will be issued for production to retailers
a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a purchaser’s details
a member’s entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12 months.'

Source: VCRA.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...earms-measures

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Sorry I've been overseas and haven't played air soft since about 2010 and am only just getting back into it and was under the impression that the VCRA had stricter far requirements than "Age and belief it will be used for permitted activities"

Has the home office changed the requirements? I thought you had to be able to prove you were a member of a Airsoft Site with 3rd party liability insurance?

That is all the VCRA requires.

UKARA go further by adding additional criteria to their membership scheme. This is to protect retailers from situations such as this.

If the sale happened and it went to court the retailer could argue their case. "He was over 18 and based on our conversation I was satisfied he was a skirmisher"

UKARA adds further weight to that:
"The customer has made the effort to attend the same sight 3 times in no less than 2 months to satisfy the requirement of becoming member of that site, which in itself is a member of the UKARA. To that end, upon production of his site membership number (held on the UKARA database) I was confident beyond all reasonable doubt that the customer was a Bonafide skirmisher, m'lord"

[Fizzy]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Well, I'm only going on what Tim Wyborn told me, and he was part of the ABA, so...

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

That is there for information.

As you love the VCRA so much, read Section 37. That is the bit that details the legal defences.

Please highlight the part where UKARA are mentioned.

[Fizzy]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

That is there for information.

As you love the VCRA so much, read Section 37. That is the bit that details the legal defences.

Please highlight the part where UKARA are mentioned.

To be fair I'm lookng at a copy right now, and I don't even see Airsoft mentioned under section 37...

[shotgun!]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

That is there for information.

As you love the VCRA so much, read Section 37. That is the bit that details the legal defences.

Please highlight the part where UKARA are mentioned.

Section 37, you mean the section from which I copied out the relevant section about new players getting an exemption into this thread twice and you completely ignored?

I never mentioned UKARA. You did. UKARA is irrelevant here.

I mentioned the fact in the actual VCRA, in section 37 it clearly says 'new players must play at least 3 three times in a period of not less than two months the two months before being offered membership' which directly contradicts you.

Perhaps if you want to tell me to 'read Section 37' 'Bryan', you might want to familiarise yourself with what it actually says.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...earms-measures

[Fizzy]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Ok, I'm officially confused. As I said, my copy of the VCRA mentions nothing about airsoft. Shotgun, what you are linking to is some correspondence and not written in to the VCRA that I can see?

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

I am sorry Shotgun! But you are misquoting it.

Section 37 on the main page is the defences.

The bit you have quoted is merely for information stating what the ABA (Now UKARA) are doing and what THEIR MEMBERSHIP CRITERIA is. That is so people know what the players have done to earn their defence. It is not in itself legally binding or standing.

"Hey, that guy has a defence"

"Really? What?"

"He is UKARA registered"

"So what has he needed to do to get that?"

"He needed to attend 3 games..... Blah, blah, blah"

The LEGAL bit is simply that he has a defence. Take an Airsoft Celebrity for example...... Bodge Up the sniper. I have never met him nor do I know his real name. Let's assume he was buying something off me or off a retailer.

Proof of age would be required as I don't know him from Adam, and then simply proving he is BodgeUp would be a defence as I could sell to him safe in the knowledge that he is an airsofter. There is sufficent evidence that I could confidently go to court and show his videos and his social media pages to the judge and argue he wanted the gun for airsofting, which has a defence under permitted activities.

But hey, what do I know...........

[Tokrund]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

I can't see anything that relates to airsoft in there, was there an amendment?

[shotgun!]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

The bit I'm quoting is the interpretation generally accepted by the majority of retailers, and the government, from the government site.

You are basically explaining how some retailers and buyers are using loopholes to get around it. Until it's tested in a court of law, there's no precedent either way.

Personally, I think the fact you're telling people how to obtain replica imitation firearms without having ever skirmished, but while you're technically not wrong in that many unscrupulous retailers ARE being 'flexible' with their own interpretations of the legislation.

Doesn't make it right.

EDIT: ok, I have possibly misread Bryan's second point based on the inaccuracy of his first one. It's the 'belief that it will be used for permitted activities' that's the grey area. As Fizzy and you both say at other points in this thread, yeah if you can reasonably accept someone is an airsofter, then you are permitted to sell. However, majority of retailers won't accept that approach and most of those that do require a fair amount of information to do so. Your original scenario of walking into a shop and saying 'I'm going to an airsoft site this weekend and promise to use it properly' is rubbish- I'm pretty sure not even Z1 would sell to somebody that's never played airsoft before on the strength of their word that they're going to a game that weekend.

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

I can't see anything that relates to airsoft in there, was there an amendment?

Part 6, B

That is where the Secretary of State has given us our specific defence. It is in another document but that is the bit the judge and lawyers would be concerned with.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a loop hole. It is the law.

What has actually happened is since the inception of UKARA as it now stands they themselves have allowed people to think they are necessary. (They can make life easier in terms of checking sales, but they are not necessary)

Because they have been the only real Airsoft body making any noise people have Fally believed they have some kind of governance and the committee has allowed that belief to propegate.

I am not telling anybody and loop holes or work arounds. This is how it should have been from the start. I am merely educating players that much disinformation has been spread over the years and they are misinformed.

If I take a baby and keep it isolated from the world as it grows and every day I tell it that the grass is orange until it it is 10 years old and then send it to school with other kids.... my kid would be wrong for believing the grass to be orange and would need educating as to what is correct and how it had been lied to all these years........ That is essentially what this is.

[shotgun!]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

You think that being able to buy whatever realistic imitation firearm you want on the strength of 'oh I'm going to use it properly this weekend' is 'the way it should have been from the start'?

You're back to talking bollocks again.

Thank goodness majority of retailers in the UK actually take it more seriously than you do.

I actually agree with you generally about UKARA, it's about as much use as a chocolate fire guard in terms of actual legality and they're definitely prone to, but it's a quick easy-reference thing to have, and it's accepted by HM Border force for importing RIFs which is pretty handy (try telling them that you're going to use your RIF on the weekend but you've never played before.' See how long your gun stays out of the crusher).

Regardless of UKARA though, you're basically just telling people they don't need to provide any kind of proof or evidence to buy guys under the VCRA, which is not only rubbish and will get you laughed out of half the reputable shops in the UK, it's woefully irresponsible for the future of the hobby...