Who to report VCRA violations to?

[Fizzy]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

It's the 'belief that it will be used for permitted activities' that's the grey area. As Fizzy and you both say at other points in this thread, yeah if you can reasonably accept someone is an airsofter, then you are permitted to sell. However, majority of retailers won't accept that approach and most of those that do require a fair amount of information to do so. Your original scenario of walking into a shop and saying 'I'm going to an airsoft site this weekend and promise to use it properly' is rubbish- I'm pretty sure not even Z1 would sell to somebody that's never played airsoft before on the strength of their word that they're going to a game that weekend.

Indeed it is a grey area. 1 site/shop was selling RIFs to 'Dad' even though dad hadn't played a game.

They were interpreting the fact that Airsoft is a permitted activity, and can sell to someone onsite who's over 18, if the RIF was to be used to skirmish with. In this case dad was buying it for his son/daughter to airsoft with

As we both agree, many retailers aren't comfortable doing this. It's not necessarily a loophole, it's just how you interpret what's written, and until it's cleared up (a court case for example) then it's going to remain as is

Bryan's not telling people how to buy RIFs without a defence, I 'believe' he's interpreting what's written in a similar way to my example of the site/retailer

The crux of it is, as a retailer, would you sell to someone who has never skirmished before if they just turn up to your shop and give a 'cub scouts honour' that they will use the RIF for airsofting? If they do, then technically that's fine, but how can you guarantee it? If you can't, and have any doubts, then you simply don't sell to them.

How do you cover yourself? The UKARA requirements...

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Shotgun.... I am only stating the legal facts.

How you interpret those or add your own additional personal views to it down to you.

What I have said is fact.
What I have said is law.
What you are stating is opinion.

The OP was asking about the police or trading standards and although they may agree with your opinion they have no choice but to follow the law.

Yes, UK borders accept UKARA and it is helpful, but if they did their job properly and rather than taking the easy route of UKARA or crush it wouldn't further the myth that you need UKARA.

I am pretty sure I have made phone calls on your behalf previously about this very matter......

[shotgun!]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Whether you consider it a loophole or not I guess depends on the actual buyer- if someone is an experienced player and knows x,y and z retailers that know him and the site that he plays at, I see that as fine (did it myself for four years).

However, if someone wants to run around the woods with a realistic looking gas pistol and isn't an airsofter finds out it's as easy as finding a retailer prepared to make a quick buck and spinning some dit about going to an airsoft game that weekend, that to me's a loophole.

As you say Fizz, until someone actually gets done in court for it, there's no absolute.

[Darkmikey22]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

I've just been offered the chance to buy a RIF from an Airsoft Retailer despite not currently having a defence and I was wondering if anyone knows who I should report this to, the Police or Trading Standards?

Come on guys!
I Think the OP needs to elaborate a bit more on what he means "offered a chance", before you lot keep on with the VCRA crap!

He stated "offered", I'm offered a chance by the guy on the counter every time I walk into my local shop. It isn't until the point of sale and the transaction is about to take place that they then normally ask for you're details and defence. Now he never stated he got that far!

So OP, were you at the point of sale and details been taken? Or did he just say that you could buy it if you wanted to get you interested?
As that's normally the point of the game in retail!

Plus what are trade and standards or the police going to do?, did a transaction take place? NO! so other than offer it to you, what trade law has he actually broke?

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

And that is the crux of it, which is why I was carful to state the the retailer must be satisfied it is for Airsoft skirmishing under permitted activities of the VCRA.

Anybody making a quick buck selling to anybody should be birched.

But having your sales restricted because of misinformation is not on.
Having your purchases restricted because of misinformation is not on.

If it is legal then it is legal.

I live ina quiet area where there is a local initiative to drive at 20mph. I regularly drive at 30mph because that is the legal limit. Just because in somebodies opinion it should be lower doesn't mean a thing. I could drive past a police speed gun at 30mph and be perfectly within my legal right to do so.

[pugwash]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Was there an actual sale? No, then there is nothing to flap about.

[Fizzy]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Never let the facts get in the way of a good VCRA/UKARA debate!

But yes, I also have the chance to 'buy a RIF' online simply by adding it to my basket. It's not untill I go through the motions I have to verify myself, so the OP is being rather vague

Still, game on! (for the minute)

- - - Updated - - -

Was there an actual sale? No, then there is nothing to flap about.

So attempted murder isn't a crime? :p

[Tokrund]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Sorry I didn't want to go into to much detail originally. After explaining to the guy that I'd not played in several years and that the VCRA was a bit of a pain in regards to getting back into it I was told that if I wanted to buy a gun there and then I could as long as I paid via Gift Card (wtf?) I picked it up from their skirmish site which i thought was dodgy so I left.

I was under the impression that this was illegal, but others here have stated that under this scenario it would be ok.

[tackle]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Never let the facts get in the way of a good VCRA/UKARA debate!

But yes, I also have the chance to 'buy a RIF' online simply by adding it to my basket. It's not untill I go through the motions I have to verify myself, so the OP is being rather vague

Still, game on! (for the minute)

- - - Updated - - -



So attempted murder isn't a crime? :p

Lol, it's OK as long as your only thinking about it............ Otherwise I'd have been locked up lots of times

[Bryan Mills]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

It would be absolutely legal if you were booked on to play the day you collected or they were convinced you would be playing at a date specified at the point of sale.

Simply collecting it from the site does not in itself prove your intent to skirmish.

[Tokrund]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Ok, if that how the law currently stands then my bad!

[Proto]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Section 37, you mean the section from which I copied out the relevant section about new players getting an exemption into this thread twice and you completely ignored?

I never mentioned UKARA. You did. UKARA is irrelevant here.

I mentioned the fact in the actual VCRA, in section 37 it clearly says 'new players must play at least 3 three times in a period of not less than two months the two months before being offered membership' which directly contradicts you.

Perhaps if you want to tell me to 'read Section 37' 'Bryan', you might want to familiarise yourself with what it actually says.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...earms-measures

While that's an official site, it doesn't cite the VCRA. The ABA are as much a legal body as UKARA is, they offer guidelines and methodology to avoid prosecution but hold no weight beyond representation.

Since section 37 is confusing you, I cite the government's website purely for unadulterated legislation, scroll down to section 37 and click that link, it will unveil the criteria a judge would operate under, this is the absolute factual truth of defense against prosecution, accept no substitutes.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/contents

Edit: Forgot that it required amendment!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/3/made

That is what makes the sale legal.

[shotgun!]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Yeah turns out I actually know Bryan and have completely misunderstood what he was trying to say. (Also, cheers Fizzy for knowing both of us and not saying anything because you thought it was funny :p )

Fair play, I stand by my opinion that anyone who sells to someone who just says 'I've not played before but I'm taking this to a game this weekend' is a knobber but I've learned a few things today.

I've thought that gov.uk link was an actual proper explanation of Section 37, so cheers for putting me straight.

<Bows out in embarrassed contrition>

[Fizzy]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

Yeah turns out I actually know Bryan and have completely misunderstood what he was trying to say. (Also, cheers Fizzy for knowing both of us and not saying anything because you thought it was funny :p )

Misunderstandings...it's all how things are interpreted

[Scotty Dog]

Re: Who to report VCRA violations to?

All of this aside the chances of anything airsoft related ever going through a prosecution under the VCRA is slim to non-existent. I've never even heard of anything imitation firearm related being pursued as anything other than an offence under firearms act (and being in a public place) or in relation to another violent crime where something has been used to threaten.

TBH I doubt CPS would ever go for a charge on this, it would be ridiculous to say the least.

Plus anyone ringing up police, on 101 or 9s, quoting vcra legislation in specific details is just going to get relegated to the tin hat brigade

In all honesty any mention of the vcra would just kill airsoft because the busy-bodies would just realise that the legislation they put in place (to ruin everyones fun) didn't have the desired effect so they'd probably seek to amend it into an outright ban. Alls fair in love and war... if something is really dangerous someone would have already rung the police, otherwise don't lose any sleep over it!