Providing proof of age.

[Joefuski]

I have been thinking about it this morning and would like to propose that the forum should be like the Z1 online shop and require proof of I.D. I have been thinking about it because I have just had a group of what I would say 15-16 year olds trying to get me to tattoo them, needless to say they're banned from the studio.

Would just go that one step further to stop kids coming onto these forums to buy a second hand gun to get round age restriction.

All it would require is a photo of some I.D be it driving licence, Passport, student card etc along with a picture of the users face holding a piece of paper with their forum tag on to prove they haven't just grabbed an image of someone's licence from Google (as well as something to compare it too). Then all that would have to happen is for a MOD to check the images and approve with an 18+ tag by the name. If you don't provide ID you get a under 18 or not age verified tag.

Then change the sales section to have a system in place where if you're not age approved you can't get in. Or you could have it so under age users can get in but can't see user details of the seller so they then can't PM them to start a deal.

I know it would be a lot of work for MODs initialy but I know I for one I personally would be willing to do it to help make sure the sport stays on the right side of law. I don't imagine that after all the regulars have been checked that there would be too many per week to check.

It would also stop the annoying threads where you can tell someone is OBVIOUSLY underage but can't say anything on thread without being a nob.

Discuss.

[aribos]

Re: Providing proof of age.

This has been suggested before. And the answer as before is it will not happen.

As we only have the server space for the forum we do not have the option to be able to hold peoples personal details for proof of age on record (This goes into a long long process of having to pass data protection tests etc etc (Trust me I work for a training company that deals with the government for a living))

As such no one person could have the responsibility of keeping track of the ID's and also we merely act as a classfieds advertisement service.

Such as your local newspaper, we have the means for you to list the advert but what happens between the seller buyer etc is purely to them. We have Zero responsibility for who sells to who and whether they request UKARA or similar defence or not. We simply try to enforce the law as best we can by tagging users we know to be under 18 and banning users who sell to under 18s that we know of.

Unfortunately we cannot track every single person who is underage, that's why we ask forum members to report any suspicious activity so we can investigate and if needed tag the user underage or ban them.

In summary, sorry to say this wont happen due to the time constraints, the legal ramifications and also the cost it would take to set up a secure database and get clearance for it. (Yes it is that complicated to be able to look at peoples personal details. At work I have to sign disclosures, data protection act paperwork and also sign in and out of our records room. Failure to do any of the above or leak info can result in gross misconduct and losing a job)

[Tiercel]

Re: Providing proof of age.

Not gonna happen, its the sellers responsibility to check the age etc of the buyer.

Plus you have to be 18 to be UKARA registered (as far as I know anyway) so there you go, proof of age for most people is sorted right away.

Also like hell am I posting a pic of myself and some photo ID on an internet forum for the whole world to see.

Lastly Im pretty sure there would be some legal ramifications to holding a database of personal information like that.

[Joefuski]

Re: Providing proof of age.

That's fair enough then aribos, totally forgot about the legal side of it, guess I was just annoyed from the lads earlier and should have thought about it more. Shame though, but never mind. Surely though if something like this was made optional people could volunteer their information without any legal ramifications as it is theirs to give, I'm aware of things in the Data protection act stating that information can't be held any longer than needed etc but if you were to get the information check them off as over 18 then you could get rid of it? Like being I.D in a shop. Still never mind I just think it's a damn shame that it's so hard to police it.

Also Tiercel if it was to happen the whole internet wouldn't see it, just one person who works for the forum. That being said you don't have to worry about it anyway. Don't forget as well not everyone is UKARA registered and choose not to be so they have the right to buy 2 tones but still need to provide proof of age.

Never mind anyway, like I said was just a thought not a demand.

Joe.

[oneshot187]

Re: Providing proof of age.

There was a US forum that did this just to join, funnily enough the site piled in because people whether the right age or not just couldnt be bothered with the hassle and went elsewhere..

[Jsmithy]

Re: Providing proof of age.

As everyone above as suggested, although this would be a good idea and probably solve most of the under age/illegal buying issues, people would find a way around it, plus it'd slow down the amount of new people joining the forum. Plus it's down to the seller to check the buyer's entitlement to purchase the said RIF

[Gaffa]

Re: Providing proof of age.

There doesn't seem to be any system in place on any board that completely solves this problem.

However, I have suggested another option in the past...

When you sign up to the forum, you must submit your DOB. Now I believe that if people want to break the law and beat the system, they'll simply submit a fake DOB.

There is an addon for VB Software that disables custom-set sections of the forum, if you are below a certain age. I've got this installed on our forums and works very well at preventing U/A users from accessing the likes of guns for sale sections.

Now, there's two problems to this.

Firstly, the scenario whereby a user creates an account, sees they're U/A, and simply creates another account in order to break the law.

Secondly, some people may simply want to browse the sales sections in order to gauge prices and to get ideas of what to buy in the future.

However, both of these points can be answered...

1) If a user creates a duplicate account, the forum team will rely on other members to report members who attempt to purchase IFs/ RIFs illegally - ie, under age. By doing this, we could simply temp ban the offending user, with the ban note being something along the lines of "Please get in touch providing your true DOB or all your Zin Accounts will be banned permanently". This does rely on some honesty, and nothing stopping another account being created.

Until IPs are checked...

Secondly, if all access of gun sales sections is restricted, then although some will complain that they simply want to browse, the truth of the matter is that if the temptation isn't there, and there's no way of getting in, people may simply give up and move to another forum.

That individual may still be breaking the law in doing so, but at least ZeroIn would have prevented crime happening on their board.

[Fil]

Re: Providing proof of age.

While I can see that it'd be quite a lot of work to set up a system such as this I have to disagree that the Data Protection Act would introduce any sort of significant amount of additional work. Frankly as long as you had a secure area in which to store the images while they were being verified then the major DPA issue would be dealt with. The DPA really is not that complicated, it's just common sense rules for dealing with personal data.

[N_Scooby]

Re: Providing proof of age.

Why create work for the mods? It is the sellers responsibility to check the age & defence of the buyer. If everyone did this then there would be no illegal sales. It is the ones not bothering to do this that jepodise the sport!!

[Joefuski]

Re: Providing proof of age.

Why create work for the mods? It is the sellers responsibility to check the age & defence of the buyer. If everyone did this then there would be no illegal sales. It is the ones not bothering to do this that jepodise the sport!!

By suggesting it I wasn't intent on creating more work for mods. I was simply trying to suggest something to ensure no one has the chance to forget to check someone else's age. I agree that sellers should ALWAYS check the buyer's age and defence but when money comes into it for most people a sale is more important than following the law or maybe people just forget. We're human and it happens. Removing variables is the only way to ensure things are done correct.

At the end of the day I was just trying to suggest a way to to improve things. Not for any other reason than; I enjoy the forum and the sport and would hate either of these things to be taken away from us as a community.

Joe.

[Jimborb]

Re: Providing proof of age.

Why not try what some of the smaller forums I frequent use - have separate sections of the forum for RIF and two-tone sales?
Anyone wanting access to the RIF section would need to provide their UKARA/site membership details.
Two-tone section could be given a bit more attention that way, as (unless someone's nicked a UKARA) all the users in the RIF section would be over 18, it'd be a bit easier to find out those that look a bit dodgy.
I'm not 100% sure (as I have very little knowledge of data protection malarkey) but is a UKARA/site membership number subject to the same kind of security as a full date of birth, address and photo? Could be a way to work around the security requirements.

Of course, it's a lot of work for the mods and it's ultimately down to the sellers, but wouldn't Zero-in want to do as much as possible to safeguard the sport from the numpties that will inevitably screw up?
If I sell alcohol to someone, I do have the responsibility to ensure they're over 18, but it's not just my responsibility - it's the responsibility of the people who I work for to make sure that policy is drilled into my brain until it's all I can think about. Because if I don't the store's alcohol license could be revoked.

Just a poor analogy, I'm not stating that Zero-in is employing us all, etc. Just surprised that there seems to be very little to stop little Billy from signing up for an account, and buying a gun from someone who needs the cash urgently - I've had people offer to sell me RIF's in the past, and I'm not UKARA or site registered.

[Fil]

Re: Providing proof of age.

I'm not 100% sure (as I have very little knowledge of data protection malarkey) but is a UKARA/site membership number subject to the same kind of security as a full date of birth, address and photo? Could be a way to work around the security requirements.

Yes it is. But given they already store personal data about users anyway then we'd have to assume that they have some form of secure data storage available to them anyway.

[aribos]

Re: Providing proof of age.

Why not try what some of the smaller forums I frequent use - have separate sections of the forum for RIF and two-tone sales?
Anyone wanting access to the RIF section would need to provide their UKARA/site membership details.
Two-tone section could be given a bit more attention that way, as (unless someone's nicked a UKARA) all the users in the RIF section would be over 18, it'd be a bit easier to find out those that look a bit dodgy.
I'm not 100% sure (as I have very little knowledge of data protection malarkey) but is a UKARA/site membership number subject to the same kind of security as a full date of birth, address and photo? Could be a way to work around the security requirements.

Unfortunately this wouldn't work, Not everyone gets UKARA registered and although you do have to be a member of a site with third party liability insurance (I think that's how its worded). With regards to the over 18, you have to be over 18 to buy a RIF or IF. Its the defence that is very hard to provide proof for, even with the authorities they still doubt some proof given to them.

[MAJIK]

Re: Providing proof of age.

We simply try to enforce the law as best we can by tagging users we know to be under 18 and banning users who sell to under 18s that we know of.

So any user under is to be tagged?

If so the mods will get a list of names of under 18 users that i know

Dom

[Fizzy]

Re: Providing proof of age.

Normally the ones that are tagged are ones found to be trying to buy RIFs/IFs