idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

[eatthis]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

As an addition to the weapons front dont forget the invasion caches from ww2 and the cold war... so stens, tommy guns , lee enfields , slrs , gpmgs, bren gun , all the goodies like that

baggsy on the gpmp

[welshwarrior]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

How the hell can you digress this far!

[Tiercel]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Have a look at the film Doomsday! Scottish punk rebels! :D All you need is some ginger hair dye, some leather jackets and a dodgey fake accent!


Or just look at your average EDL "protest" (if it can even be called that, most EDL members probably couldnt even spell protest let alone understand how to do it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8

[PureSilver]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

In fact the main thing really stopping me going full IRA look is that I don't feel fully comfortable assuming the look and role of a fighter from a conflict I don't fully understand, as with Afghanistan or Iraq or the Russian Afghan campaign, hence my desire for a more fictional OPFOR look really.

This post probably sums up why I like the idea you've presented in this thread so much, and why I dislike wearing full-on in-detail unit allegiances in airsoft. Here are the facts as we all know them: war in general, and infantry combat in particular, are brutal, callous and horrendous experiences not just for those directly involved but beyond. I personally find it healthy to keep airsoft - a thrilling game of toy soldiers - as far removed from actual combat as possible. That's for a number of reasons, three of which are especially critical here - first, because I don't think it's respectful to the memory of the inevitable casualties of combat, second, because I don't think the survivors would appreciate a pantomime version of the worst days of their lives being recreated for my amusement, and thirdly because I don't want to impliedly or expressly lend support to any particular side of any combat.

Yes, there are a few rare examples of conflicts where one side was unequivocally 'in the wrong', which is why I'm always faintly disgusted by people that wear Nazi uniforms and other memorabilia. But 99% of the time both sides had legitimate grievances - whether it was the British, or the Taliban, the IRA, the Argentines, the Egyptians, the Irgun, the Jerries, the Japs, the Huns, the Boers, the Russians, the French, the Dutch, the Spanish or those damned colonialists in the New World. All of them fought and died and while I appreciate something like re-enacting for historical posterity, I'm not pretending that I'm running around with an assault rifle for anyone's enjoyment or edification but my own. As far as I'm concerned, red vs. blue, or fictional English civil warriors vs. Big Brother is a much better idea than Coalition vs. hajis or Marines vs. Argies.

[ratty1968]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Many years ago (many many years) there was a story in 2000AD titled Bill savage - Invasion. It was a story about the 'Volgan' invasion of GB. Tho the image i've linked to isn't the best it does give an impression of what British freedom fighters could look like.

http://www.2000adreview.co.uk/review...392/savage.jpg

@ PureSilver.
I understand your comment, but i have to disagree somewhat with what you've posted. If all you want to do is go a game thats 'Red v Blue' you may as well paintball. Airsoft far better lends itself to authentis looks and impressions on the playing field.
I milsim, and lead a group of up to 23 members of a team 'Family Mohammed'.
As you may guess we're an insurrgent team playing freedom fighters in an ongoing campaign set in Chad. We have a people carrier thats used in game, as well as a well knitted bunch of fighgters, an IED team using remote dets and a mortor team. We don't for a minute believe we are those freedom fighters using real weapons, but theres far more to it than just 'Red v Blue'.

[Longshot]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Yes, there are a few rare examples of conflicts where one side was unequivocally 'in the wrong', which is why I'm always faintly disgusted by people that wear Nazi uniforms and other memorabilia.

Not to go off topic (too far), but what in what way were the Nazis "unequivocally in the wrong?"

So as to stay on topic (sort of) here is the dress of an historically accurate English rebel:

[jasevx]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

When I was in the mob in the late 80's thatcher believed the TA's job was to support regulars in West Germany, so if Britain was invaded, there would be virtually no troops. Due to this she instigated an additional non-paid organisation, very similar to a militia. It was short lived because to be honest, they were crap. However the principal was there, similar to your ideas. retired soldiers (they were called dads army in the press), medically discharged servicemen etc were given roles to control certain areas. Weapons were ex MOD stock, old SLRs, Bren, SMG. They were to blend in and fight a guerilla war. Part of the plan was for Cadets from all three services to be armed as a final resort and protect vital installations, so having fully armed 14 yr olds wasnt far off the plan. Included in this was arming the police with MOD supplies to become pseudo-MOD-PLOD.

When I was part of Brigade HQ, we deployed in Germany in industrial centres, and those on external guard duty wore jeans, trainers and shell tops, with weaponry slung, hidden as possible. It was recognised the Soviets had spies across Germany, so we had to blend. This was the same as the UK. The USSR had key targets for the IRA to blow up on their behalf, and had heavily infiltrated organisations such as Greenpeace, CND and the labour party.

Basically you couldnt trust anyone!

[PureSilver]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Not to go off topic (too far), but what in what way were the Nazis "unequivocally in the wrong?"

Because if you can think of a sort of evil, the Nazis were pretty sure to have tried it;

1. Genocide against the Jews.
2. Genocide against the Roma.
3. Ethnic cleansing of Slavs, amongst others.
4. Systematic persecution and murder of political opponents.
5. Systematic persecution and murder of homosexuals.
6. Systematic sterilisation and murder of the disabled;
7. Systematic murder of each other.
8. Medical experimentation.

That's even before we get into the actual war itself.

[Jay8]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Yeah, as far as the Nazis being 'unequivocally in the wrong', I don't think you can argue. While accepting that in wars no side comes out with complete moral justification in their conduct, the Nazis were on the wrong side of history to such a degree that they made the Star Wars Evil Empire v Rebels look like a nuanced and morally complex conflict by comparison.

Although I disagree on the idea that airsoft should be Red v Blue (for instance). Sometimes it works, sometimes a more immersive scenario suits, it's no different from CoD being set in a sandy place or Berlin or wherever, or even as a kid playing with Spitfire toys shooting down Messerscmitts or cops v robbers - history or reality always imposes upon games, so when we play soldiers as grown-ups why should it be any different - manytimes the difference between the airsofter and the CoD player or kid is that the airsofter understands alittle more of the significance of what they are 'simulating'.

To be honest, if things had kicked off in the Cold War, I think the TA should have been in West Germany, since ultimately the battle there will be more important than if we were to stop the Reds talking Basingstoke, and even civil unrest would be the least of our worries. Not that the number of tanks rumbling around Germany would have made a huge amount of difference when the mushroom clouds started appearing.

[Longshot]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

If genocide, mass persecution and systematic murder make you "unequivocally in the wrong" then Britain (along with most European powers) has been unequivocally wrong in many of its past military activities, particularly the conquest of the new world and colonisation of Africa. The only major difference was that we won. You could argue that at least the Germans had what you called 'legitimate grievances' post World War 1, given the nature of the ridiculous treaties they had to deal with.

Besides which, people don't actually do airsoft or milsim as 'Nazis' to my knowledge, but as German Armed Forces, much like people who do airsoft or Milsim in British Armed Forces loadouts are obviously not doing so as members of the 'Coalition.' To not give the Wehrmacht credit as a fighting force (or to criticise people who do give them credit) simply because you don't like the politics of their leaders is about as fair as saying the current SAS are dicks because David Cameron and George Osborne are.

[PureSilver]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

If genocide, mass persecution and systematic murder make you "unequivocally in the wrong" then Britain (along with most European powers) has been unequivocally wrong in many of its past military activities, particularly the conquest of the new world and colonisation of Africa.

Indeed. If I ever see anyone airsofting as cowboys vs. Indians, or as either side of the Boer war, I shall let you know. In fact, if anyone ever starts making an airsoft Martini-Henry, you let me know.

Here's why what you're saying is a non-argument: there is no airsoft set in the periods you're describing. Ever seen a man at your local airsoft site dressed like any of these chaps?



That's because we all know that it would be kind of iffy to dress up as the guys that turned Maxim guns on people armed with spears. Funnily enough, it's apparently OK to dress up as the guys that turned Zyklon B on people that weren't armed at all:

Try SS, they will be more easy to do.

I'd put some photos of what the SS used to do for a living up here so everyone could compare the historical accuracy of their loadouts, but frankly they're a bit distressing.

The only major difference was that we won. You could argue that at least the Germans had what you called 'legitimate grievances' post World War 1, given the nature of the ridiculous treaties they had to deal with.

With all due respect, there are other differences. Firstly, as before, I have not once ever heard, let alone seen, anyone skirmishing as a member of any of the examples I know you're already thinking about typing, whereas this very forum has an entire subforum essentially devoted to doing impressions of Nazis. Yes, I know it's nominally called 'German Loadouts' but six of the threads have Nazi connotations in the titles alone. Secondly, while other forces in the world have committed atrocities, I cannot think of one in the twentieth century with the possible exception of the vengeful Russians who set so completely about committing them. Thirdly, while other forces in the world have committed atrocities, most of the twentieth century ones were committed in isolation, not as a general rule - again, unlike the Third Reich.

Besides which, people don't actually do airsoft or milsim as 'Nazis' to my knowledge, but as German Armed Forces

People don't airsoft or milsim as Nazis to your knowledge? Allow me educate you with threads from this very forum - I'm not even going to bother trawling through the photos:

Thread 'Gestapo Loadout' - The Gestapo, of course, were the Nazi's party's own secret police, maintained outposts at all concentrations camps and staffed such jolly groups as the Einsatzgruppen.
Thread 'SS Officer' - The Schutzstaffel, of course, were described by the Nuremberg tribunals as responsible for the vast majority of war crimes perpetrated under the Nazi regime, it was the primary organization which carried out the Holocaust. Helpfully, a user in the thread aggressively refutes any suggestions that airsofters remove swastikas from their uniforms.
Thread '9th SS Kit Guide' - This thread serves mostly to remind me that while it's easy to get Lugers, P38s, MP40s, K98s, Panzerfausts, StG-44s and the like, there still aren't SMLEs or Webleys, and Garands are rare too. Why would you imagine that is?
Thread 'Hitler Youth' - Really I feel like comments are superfluous at this point.

So, really your assertion that 'people don't airsoft as 'Nazis'' is plainly wrong, as is your assertion that...

much like people who do airsoft or Milsim in British Armed Forces loadouts are obviously not doing so as members of the 'Coalition.'

...which is plainly bulls***. I mean, I could point you to the UKSF threads but you already know about them. What would be the point?

To not give the Wehrmacht credit as a fighting force (or to criticise people who do give them credit) simply because you don't like the politics of their leaders is about as fair as saying the current SAS are dicks because David Cameron and George Osborne are.

Don't get me wrong. When the Wehrmacht and the rest of the Reich wasn't machinegunning civilians, slaughtering POWs, gassing minorities, and generally being the most evil war machine in the history of mankind, I'm not suggesting that they didn't fight well. But let's be honest - that has precisely no comparision to Cameron and the SAS and you know it. Arguing otherwise is arguing for the sake of not admitting to yourself the reason why you support people that like to airsoft dressed as Nazism's various guises.

You can say it! C'mon, altogether now...

The Germans had the cool stuff.

Yes, they did. Tigers, U-Boats, K98s, uniforms by Hugo Boss - the works. I get it, really I do. However, ask yourself this:

Is a uniform by Hugo Boss worth letting PureSilver encounter someone dressed as the guy that put his friend's father in Auschwitz and gassed all of his friends and relatives, when all he's trying to do is unwind?

You tell me.

[Kingluke23]

So we should all turn up in adidas trackies rockport boots and helly hansen bubble jackets may as well top it off with a burberry cap and a thick gold chain.....

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[fuzzhead]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

actually i have seen people airsoft in boar war uniform and many others have at large events such as groundzeroweekender

[GhostDivisionAirsoft]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

I agree with a lot of what you're saying actually, and the threads you're pointing out do reinforce your ideas nicely. It does seem sadly that on here there are players who would like to get dressed up in a Gestapo uniform. What you're missing is that there are a whole host of dedicated WW2 Airsofters (really they are reenactors) who 'reconstruct' the German Armed Forces of WW2.

I personally have no problem with anyone wearing German WW2 uniform, I wouldn't wear any kind of SS kit, but that's me. Also a distinction needs to be made between the various forces of the SS. The Waffen SS were by and large an elite fighting force (although they did commit atrocities), but other groups like the Allgemaine or Totenkopf were more 'death squads' and are NOT portrayed in WW2 airsoft events. Many do dress as Waffen SS though, and one of the things that must be remembered is that if this makes them a Nazi, then would a Russian impression make them a Commie? The Russians did some pretty nasty things throughout WW2 and of course, because they helped win, it is mostly overlooked. Then again what is to say a person wearing unidentifiable kit is a perfectly normal person who doesn't hold any dodgy views whatsoever?

What I am trying to say is that the uniform doesn't make the player, the player is wearing the uniform to preserve the 'suspension of disbelief' that is prominent in WW2 airsoft games. Certain scenarios do involve Waffen SS as they were actually there for the real battle. I agree to a certain extent that it is vaguely distasteful to portray the godawful thing that is war through airsoft, but it is something that happens, and the scenarios that are set up to reenact real battles are set up with thought and tact.

The other thing I would mention is that a lot of the Wehrmacht was made up of 'normal' people. Veterans who had been in WW1 and knew the horrors of war often saw through Nazi propaganda, but they were forced into conscprition all the same. You certainely didn't have to be in the Nazi party to be in the Wehrmacht, and most weren't. People from all walks of life were forced into the Wehrmact, and while that doesn't make the atroctities acceptable, you have to remember that those who caused the atoricities within the Wehrmact were more the exception, not the rule.

This is an interesting article written by someone with much more knowledge than me:
http://www.ww2airsoft.org.uk/dem-nartsees-is-eeevil/

On topic sorry about the off-topic ness

[Longshot]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

The limitations of writing on an iPad mean I'm keeping this short, which is unfortunate because as you know I like to argue (often for the sake of arguing) and love putting together a well thought out and referenced reply (I very much liked yours by the way Pure), but the two real points I would make are:

1, What GhostDivision said (and you did too, to a degree). Most people who dress as 'Nazis' or German Armed Forces in public do so because the Germans had the cool looking kit and a lot of people want to be the 'bad guy.' To them it's no different than picking to play Vader rather than a Jedi in Star Wars, to reference an earlier comparison. Do they really support or condone mass murders and atrocities? I'd say (and hope) not.

2, if that offends you then I'm afraid that's something you'll have to live with. Could I say I'm sickened by people in DPM because my family is Irish and were persecuted by the British Army in recent decades? Could I berate someone for dressing as 'African militia' because I had a friend who lost family in the Rwandan genocide? The answer is a personal one I guess, but what I should probably realise is that committed Nazis in the 40s might have done those things, Rwandan fighters in the 90s might have done those things, but the guy who turns up to an airsoft game in similar looking gear did not, anymore than the guy with the AK and big fury hat is responsible for the many more people who died under Stalin's rule. i dont think he should be made to dress in a way that might not potentially hurt anyone's feelings.