Is it me or...

[badger906]

Re: Is it me or...

if its rarer than rocking horse shite ill pay what it takes, but if its common as muck then im only after it if its a bargain, hence why im looking at used products.

[PureSilver]

Re: Is it me or...

The seller, person A wishes to sell his object for reasons known only to them. Person B, the buyer wishes to obtain said object. Who dictates the price? A, who has possession of the commodity? Or B, who lusts after said item?

I'll let you in on a trade secret...it isn't B.

*Sigh* Again, this simply isn't how markets work. If I have a £1 coin, and I wish to sell it, who dictates the price? According to you, I do, because 'it is mine, and I am the one selling it' and can set the price at £2. In practice, as everyone in this thread - including you - knows, I won't get more than £1 for it, because that is what the market (both sellers and buyers) says a £1 coin is worth. So in theory, yes, 'it is a seller's market' but you won't sell the goddamned thing (and therefore you aren't a seller and have no market).

In practice, the market value of an item is what you can persuade someone to PAY for it (just like share prices, for example). In situations where the commodity is rare, it is a seller's market because the buyer cannot get the commodity elsewhere. Airsoft, which is clone upon clone, provides a situation where the buyer can get the gun elsewhere with great ease. Thus the buyer can decide what price he is happy to pay and thus it's 'his' market because until it reaches that price he's not buying. A good example of this is to be found in the sales threads, of which (on the front page of the AEG sales at the moment, which have been bumped) 19 threads have dropped their asking price, and only 7 have not. The seller is not dropping his prices because it is his market and he can command whatever he wants. He is dropping his prices because the buyers aren't willing to pay what he is asking and are taking their money elsewhere.

Another good illustration of this can be found, again, in the first page of the AEG sales threads. Of the 50 threads, there are 26 (as above) that have been bumped. Almost HALF, therefore, are new listings. There is only ONE gun on first page that sold at asking before a bump; therefore almost every sales thread posted can expect to be bumped at least once (statistically likely to include a price drop, too) before it is sold. If that (and the actual average number of bumps taken to sell a gun, which appears to be much higher than one) is not an illustration of a flooding market I don't know what is.

In conclusion, airsoft sellers can charge what they like but they aren't going to sell their wares and therefore aren't 'sellers' within any realistic meaning of the term. The high rate of offers, decreasing prices, and low rate of concluded sales in the AEG threads (particularly in the low-mid end of the market) is a good indication of a buyer's market, not a seller's.

[Fenriz]

Re: Is it me or...

I don't really bother with low offers, buying or selling. I personally think it's disrespectful to the seller to offer under and haggle to get the price down by £10 or whatever.

As a result I always pay asking price and expect anybody else buying from me to pay my asking price.

If the price isn't fair then....don't buy it, if the seller drops the price through lack of interest then that's cool, but I hate low-ballers coming along and going "£120? Nah m8, I'll giv u 70 4 it".

This. Its almost as bad as getting swap offers for complete junk even when youre specific on your swap preferences down the gun's model number.

I simply disregard any purchase offers i receive trying to lowball me. If i cant get what i want for it, i simply wont sell it.

[badger906]

Re: Is it me or...

when i sell guns, i see it not as a way of recouping money. But just getting some back for my next venture. If i were to sell a gun that cost me £300 a year ago, id put it up at around £200-£220, as i think its a fair price. Id go as low as £180 if the interest was low.

At the end of the day whats better for you (the owner of the gun) A) a gun that you cant sell at what you want so it sits there longer depreciating in value further or B) less money than youd like, but actually having some money regardless.

[Patrolpointman]

Re: Is it me or...

You wouldn't go to an antique shop and pay the full asking price for something. If you did, you'd be an idiot. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Ask for more than you think someone will likely pay for it, then you can haggle (wink wink) and let the buyer "beat you down" (wink wink) to the price you want to let it go for. That way, the seller gets the price they want the same as the buyer. There's also a marked difference between a decent haggle and a low-ball offer- if someone offers you £10 less because they can't *quite* stretch to cover the postage, that's not a low ball offer. Saying "I'll give you £500 for your systema maxi-super duper £2000 rifle" is a low-ball offer.

Markets are all about haggling. Otherwise it would be called a "shop".

[greenough]

Any item be it airsoft related or not is only worth what someone is willing to pay
And items will only sell if the seller is willing to take what's offered

As said prev if the offer is no good it'll keep the shelf dust company

[ACodd]

Re: Is it me or...

Something that annoys me is when people ask how many rounds had been through a RIF. 90 percent of people dont know how many has been through it if they do then they are rarther sad to be honest, ive never counted or tried.
I find most people just think of a figure and hope its somewhere near, but i will never as i never know.
Slightley off topic but a bit relevant lol.

[BAMF]

Re: Is it me or...

*Sigh* Again, this simply isn't how markets work. If I have a £1 coin, and I wish to sell it, who dictates the price? According to you, I do, because 'it is mine, and I am the one selling it' and can set the price at £2. In practice, as everyone in this thread - including you - knows, I won't get more than £1 for it, because that is what the market (both sellers and buyers) says a £1 coin is worth. So in theory, yes, 'it is a seller's market' but you won't sell the goddamned thing (and therefore you aren't a seller and have no market).

In practice, the market value of an item is what you can persuade someone to PAY for it (just like share prices, for example). In situations where the commodity is rare, it is a seller's market because the buyer cannot get the commodity elsewhere. Airsoft, which is clone upon clone, provides a situation where the buyer can get the gun elsewhere with great ease. Thus the buyer can decide what price he is happy to pay and thus it's 'his' market because until it reaches that price he's not buying. A good example of this is to be found in the sales threads, of which (on the front page of the AEG sales at the moment, which have been bumped) 19 threads have dropped their asking price, and only 7 have not. The seller is not dropping his prices because it is his market and he can command whatever he wants. He is dropping his prices because the buyers aren't willing to pay what he is asking and are taking their money elsewhere.

Another good illustration of this can be found, again, in the first page of the AEG sales threads. Of the 50 threads, there are 26 (as above) that have been bumped. Almost HALF, therefore, are new listings. There is only ONE gun on first page that sold at asking before a bump; therefore almost every sales thread posted can expect to be bumped at least once (statistically likely to include a price drop, too) before it is sold. If that (and the actual average number of bumps taken to sell a gun, which appears to be much higher than one) is not an illustration of a flooding market I don't know what is.

In conclusion, airsoft sellers can charge what they like but they aren't going to sell their wares and therefore aren't 'sellers' within any realistic meaning of the term. The high rate of offers, decreasing prices, and low rate of concluded sales in the AEG threads (particularly in the low-mid end of the market) is a good indication of a buyer's market, not a seller's.

I don't get it?

You're kind of contradicting yourself and disagreeing yet agreeing with me??

If you had one of only several pound coins (As was your analogy) and people wanted it bad enough. You could ask for pretty much whatever you wanted, as it would be sought after. Airsoft isn't like your usual commodities markets, which is what I believe you are referring to?

Airsofters, in general, are dim (Self included) and we therefore end up with all manner of threads about "What am bestust gun?" and "Why am guns so goddam expensive when they aren't new?" Ad infinitum. They will also occasionally pay over market value for an object they wish to own, be it a rarity, or the latest M4 variant with Magpul all over it.

If I charge what I like and you don't agree with the price...buy somebody else's gun...simples!

If however, I do have an object of your desire and you contact me about it, you shall pay the advertised price. The fact that the people who are desperate for cash are droppping their prices on bumps during these austere times is nothing to do with me.

I will charge, as I stated earlier, what I believe to be a fair price when I'm listing a gun. This means I don't have to (Nobody has to anyway, that's their own choice) drop it and nor will I. If people want to PM me about a listing to tell me I'm asking too much, they can. They may receive a polite return message telling them to mind their own business, but that's what happens in a seller's market!

[Hawaiian Special Forces]

Re: Is it me or...

You wouldn't go to an antique shop and pay the full asking price for something. If you did, you'd be an idiot. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Ask for more than you think someone will likely pay for it, then you can haggle (wink wink) and let the buyer "beat you down" (wink wink) to the price you want to let it go for. That way, the seller gets the price they want the same as the buyer. There's also a marked difference between a decent haggle and a low-ball offer- if someone offers you £10 less because they can't *quite* stretch to cover the postage, that's not a low ball offer. Saying "I'll give you £500 for your systema maxi-super duper £2000 rifle" is a low-ball offer.

Markets are all about haggling. Otherwise it would be called a "shop".

If we follow your definition, an Antique shop is not a shop, it's a market, except it's supposedly a shop, I specifically go into a shop to avoid the volatility and adversarial aspect of haggle-based markets and it's also why I refuse to tolerate it on forum airsoft sales.

Even "decent haggles" are disrespectful in my eyes, if you're offering £30 on a £40 item then that's a lot of the value dropped off the item, if you're offering £290 for a £300 item then you're just being a douche, you're stretching this far Mr. Buyer, you can afford another tenner. Nothing brews up bad sentiment than trying to offer under a price and little gives a good rapport between buyer and seller than the acceptance of a fair price right from the start without trying to con the seller.

This is mainly something that only really arises with small 1-1 level trades. The coercive laws of capital generally disadvantage non-adversarial practices due to increasing scale.

[Slava]

Re: Is it me or...

What are you guys arguing about? There isn't officially a term such as "buyers market" or "sellers market" in economics.
The market is influenced by both sides. Both the buyers and the sellers...it's simple supply and demand.

In the end...the seller can set any price that they want. But if they set it too high, they are dim, and chances are that no one will buy it.

[Proto]

Re: Is it me or...

What are you guys arguing about? There isn't officially a term such as "buyers market" or "sellers market" in economics.
The market is influenced by both sides. Both the buyers and the sellers...it's simple supply and demand.

In the end...the seller can set any price that they want. But if they set it too high, they are dim, and chances are that no one will buy it.

A buyer's market is when there's high supply and low demand, a seller's market is low supply and high demand.

In general, sales here are to a buyer's market as there's a sh*t load of mass produced stuff, though the odd gun/accessory that's hand-made/batch produced fits snugly in to a seller's market. What some people seem to be blind of is how much airsoft stuff there is and how willing people are to pay import duty and deal with HMRC to save themself a few quid.

[bob86]

Re: Is it me or...

i look on it as i can always lower my price for the item i want to sell, but i can't raise it...

ie if i put a gun which is worth £500 new, for sale at £100 i will sell it, and probably quickly, yet i could probably have got £250 for it. yet if i put it at £300 i may not get a huge amount of interest... yet i start bumping it down, i get down to £250 and then get interest....

its about not wanting to lose out on some possible profit

we all have an idea of what we'd like, personally i know if i put that price, i will have ppl offering me slightly less. yet if i start it slightly higher, i have ppl offering me slightly less, which then seems to be the price i would like for it anyway

[tisane]

the end...the seller can set any price that they want. But if they set it too high, they are dim, and chances are that no one will buy it.

Exactly that.

Why users get so uptight about these things is bloody beyond me, it's been said since the beginning of time, don't like the price either haggle or giggle to yourself as you move on.

Sellers property
Sellers price

SIMPLE AS!!!!

[PureSilver]

Re: Is it me or...

I don't get it?

You're kind of contradicting yourself and disagreeing yet agreeing with me??

Well, I'm still here and I don't see contradiction. What would you like me to explain?

If you had one of only several pound coins (As was your analogy) and people wanted it bad enough. You could ask for pretty much whatever you wanted, as it would be sought after. Airsoft isn't like your usual commodities markets, which is what I believe you are referring to?

If that's the bit you're not getting, allow me to expand. Firstly, whether it is gold, oil, or Tokyo Marui Series 70 1911s, everything that is for sale is subject to a market value (admittedly airsoft guns are not a 'commodity' in the technical sense of the word - they are not a raw material - but for the purposes of this example that's mere semantics). The airsoft market is EXACTLY like a commodities market (where the commodities are the airguns)*;

1. In my £1 coin example, there are 1.5bn pound coins in circulation, so there is practically unlimited supply but limited demand, which is why nobody will pay more than £1 for a £1 coin. This is fundamentally similar to airsoft, where most guns are readily available both new and used, and are not rare. Furthermore, there are many airsoft sellers to satisfy demand. Thus supply is practically unlimited but demand is limited.
2. In your version of my example, the seller has one of a FEW £1 coins, so there is limited supply which is outstripped by demand. This is fundamentally not like airsoft. Very few airsoft guns are rare; most were made in batches of thousands if not hundreds of thousands. If they sell out, retailers simply order more. Further, many airsoft guns which are rare (e.g. are discontinued) are not desirable; this leaves only very few airsoft guns which are both rare and desirable. Thus supply of almost every single airsoft gun outstrips demand.

Where supply outstrips demand, you have a BUYER'S market because there is unlimited supply which MUST be sold for the retailers to remain in business, but only limited demand. Therefore, the buyer can reject one retailer's prices and has the freedom to select another's at the lowest price attainable. Furthermore, the competition amongst retailers (whether they're ******* or BAMF), who have the supply, for the limited demand drives down prices. By corollary, only in situations where demand outstrips supply do you have a SELLER'S market, because there is limited supply but greater demand. Therefore, the seller may charge more than the cost** of the item because it is the buyers that compete for the limited supply. In the ZeroIn AEG classifieds, it is plain that there are a lot of sellers selling the same product, chasing a limited number of buyers. They do so by competing upon price; that is, dropping the cost of their guns in successive bumps until a buyer is happy with the price. Thus, you have a BUYER'S MARKET.

To summarize this point;

1. In situation 1, there are a large number of sellers all selling an unlimited amount of same product to a community of buyers. The sellers must therefore compete for the buyers' business by lowering their prices. This is a buyer's market.
2. In situation 2, there is only one seller selling the product to a community of buyers. The buyers must therefore compete for the seller's business by offering higher payment. This is a seller's market.

Which of situations 1 and 2 do you feel most resembles the market for AEG M4s?

If you said 'why, situation 2, PureSilver' then this is a hopeless argument and we shall have to agree to disagree, because there are thousands of AEG M4 variants for sale by hundreds of retailers all competing for your business upon price alone. The difference that you are already mentally drawing between you and ******* is that you do not consider that you HAVE to sell your items - 'but PureSilver, I am not a shop and do not rely upon sales to maintain my business! I can simply keep my gun!'. Yes, you can - but you are therefore not a seller because you don't sell things.

If you are retorting 'But PureSilver, my items are sought after!' that doesn't change the fact that almost nothing in airsoft is 'sought after' like you think your possessions are - that is, to the point where buyers will compete for it. If you were selling an Asahi M40A1, you would have a very rare (one of 15 survivors) gun with a lot of potential interest; your buyers would compete to offer you more for the gun. If, on the other hand, you were selling a TM Uzi, buyers do not compete for your attention and you have to bump the thread four times over a two-month period before closing it. That is - and I don't know how much clearer I can make this - a BUYER'S MARKET.


*If you can think of some compelling differences for the purposes of this example, please list them.
**Distinct from its value.

[BAMF]

Re: Is it me or...

Well, I'm still here and I don't see contradiction. What would you like me to explain?



If that's the bit you're not getting, allow me to expand. Firstly, whether it is gold, oil, or Tokyo Marui Series 70 1911s, everything that is for sale is subject to a market value (admittedly airsoft guns are not a 'commodity' in the technical sense of the word - they are not a raw material - but for the purposes of this example that's mere semantics). The airsoft market is EXACTLY like a commodities market (where the commodities are the airguns)*;[LIST=1][*]In my £1 coin example, there are 1.5bn pound coins in circulation, so there is practically unlimited supply but limited demand, which is why nobody will pay more than £1 for a £1 coin. This is fundamentally similar to airsoft, where most guns are readily available both new and used, and are not rare. Furthermore, there are many airsoft sellers to satisfy demand. Thus supply is practically unlimited but demand is limited.[*]In your version of my example, the seller has one of a FEW £1 coins, so there is limited supply which is outstripped by demand. This is fundamentally not like airsoft. Very few airsoft guns are rare; most were made in batches of thousands if not hundreds of thousands. If they sell out, retailers simply order more. Further, many airsoft guns which are rare (e.g. are discontinued) are not desirable; this leaves only very few airsoft guns which are both rare and desirable. Thus supply of almost every single airsoft gun outstrips demand.

Now you've clarified your points, I can see where you're coming from and will therefore concede I have a tendency to agree with you.

Though you may want a quick look at this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LONDON-One...item3f175ce342

Stop the world...I wanna get off!!!!!!!!!