Defence to own RIF's

[North West Outpost]

Could someone please clarify something for me.

Does adequate defence include regularly skirmishing at a site but not being a member.

My understanding when I got my site membership a good while ago now, was that you had to be UKARA registered. You recieved this by attending sites three times in no less that two months.

That doesn't mean you can not go more regularly. Only that three of the games in not less than two months will be considered for the UKARA data base.

Please only answer if you are 100% sure of the correct answer. There is no point in saying ''I think so'' ect.

Im asking this as I have had an offer on my gun to someone in this situation and we need to follow guidlines.

[Fizzy]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

Could someone please clarify something for me.

Does adequate defence include regularly skirmishing at a site but not being a member.

Yes it does, but can they prove it?

[North West Outpost]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

The site owner should be able to confirn he skirmishes regularly.

[Hypnose]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

just talk to the marshals there if they have seen you enough times there should be no problem well that was the case for me.

[jagillham]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

You got it in one.

Although your title is a little incorrect, anybody can own a RIF. All the new regulation is about buying.

Just to summarise.

To legally buy a RIF, you need to be a 'regular skirmisher' which is not very clear what exactly that is. Most shops are part of the UKARA scheme, and the membership is as you described before.

Legally you have to be regular, UKARA is one way of proving it.

[Fizzy]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

Legally you have to be regular, UKARA is one way of proving it.

Well, as the OP has his answer, I'll add this to your comment
Does being registered on the UKARA database proove you're a regular skirmisher? Actually, I'd have to say no! You could, in theory, qualify for registration by doing your 3 games in no less than 2 months, be placed on the database, not skirmish for close to 12 months and buy a RIF. Is that regular...?

[AdeUK]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

First, as long as you are not a minor, you do not need any "defence" to own a RIF.

Second, as regards getting a UKARA registered site to give you membership, you are correct in that they only grant membership to those that have completed 3 skirmish days in at least a 9 week period.

Remember, the regulations apply to the seller of a RIF. It is they that must comply with the regulations that provide them with a defence against prosecution if they make a sale. They must show that the RIF will be used on an organised site (one with Third party insurance for use as Airsoft). If you have site membership, then they are reasonably safe in supplying the RIF which is why retailers rely on it.

As I understand it, if you have site membership to a site that is UKARA registered, your membership is automatically entered onto the UKARA database which is accessible to all UKARA registered shops and sites to make it easy for them to check your status. Their website suggests that you do not have a separate "UKARA registration" as such.

If you are a member of a non registered site (that has the insurance) a seller can in theory sell a RIF to you if they are completely happy that the RIF is to be used for airsoft on an organised site. But it will be harder for them to check.

If you are playing every few weeks and have been for months, and intend to continue, and can convince a seller of that, a seller can legally supply you with a RIF even if you are not a member. The problem arises in whether you can "convince" them. Obviously Retailers have to err on the side of caution, which is why most subscribe to the UKARA method, which they have had approved by the Home Office

I believe that if a Retailer/site registers with UKARA, it is a term of their registration that they only sell to people who are members of UKARA regsitered sites. They self regulate themselves

In your case it sounds as though a seller could not be be successfully prosecuted if they sold you a RIF, but it may be hard to convince them to do so

[Caveira]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

The law says that for you to defend yourself against a charge of selling a RIF to a person who shouldn't be allowed to buy it, you must reasonably have believed that they were entitled to do so.

Check with the site, or if the site has a website with dated photos of them on it, and you're covered.

[AdeUK]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

Well, as the OP has his answer, I'll add this to your comment
Does being registered on the UKARA database proove you're a regular skirmisher? Actually, I'd have to say no! You could, in theory, qualify for registration by doing your 3 games in no less than 2 months, be placed on the database, not skirmish for close to 12 months and buy a RIF. Is that regular...?

Yep. But it is also why Site memberships expire.

Remember that having site/UKARA membership is not a requirement at law. Neither is the "3 games in no less than two months", that is a UKARA regulation. It is merely a method by which Retailers can reasonably test elligibility...otherwise they would need to know all buyers personally

If you sold to a UKARA site member who had played twice a week for the past two years but they said they did not intend to play again (or wanted it for a collection) you would in theory have no defence.

When I sell a RIF, I not only check their current status but ask them to confirm the intended/future use

[cracking day]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

Being a member of a UKARA registered site DOES NOT automatically place you on the UKARA database. You do not need to be UKARA registered to buy, just be able to prove you are entitled to avail yourself to the defence given by the Home Sec.

The most SIMPLE way of proving to a retailer, is to have your site membership details added to the UKARA database. You present your UKARA form to the site manager, he signs it and uses the site UKARA stamp to show it's been done officially. The player then sends the form to a UKARA RETAILER who places the info on their database.

The Government has NEVER said you must be "UKARA'd" only to be able to prove you are skirmisher. UKARA is a retailers association, not a legal body, the database is in place to facilitate sales easily for them with some paper-trail evidence to show they have taken reasonable steps to ensure the sale is legal.

You DO NOT need to be UKARA registered to own a RIF, or even be a site member, the new laws applied to the purchase of RIFS after the law was passed, the law is not retrospective.

UKARA registered retailers sell to anyone who can prove their defence, only a couple will only sell to UKARA registered players only.

Some retailers are not members of UKARA but still do quite well, they just have to work harder to prove that they are selling to a skirmisher.

I just wish people would stop using the "UKARA'D" phrase, its Site Membership, the very thing UKARA use to run their database!

Most retailers simply call me to verify my members, membership cards are rarely accepted as there are some forgeries about would you believe.

[Caveira]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

there are some forgeries about would you believe.

Now that's news to me, but thinking about it, I'm not in the least surprised.

[Aeviv]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

Well, as the OP has his answer, I'll add this to your comment
Does being registered on the UKARA database proove you're a regular skirmisher? Actually, I'd have to say no! You could, in theory, qualify for registration by doing your 3 games in no less than 2 months, be placed on the database, not skirmish for close to 12 months and buy a RIF. Is that regular...?

This was the big problem I found with my registration. My registration is at Xsite airsoft, the site I started skirmishing at. However as it was harder to get to, I more regularly played at AWA herts, Gunman and due to the frequency of Treadstone roadtrips, Ground Zero. So whilst I had basically skirmished every other week for three years before my registration came through, the three dates of my games at Xsite were in September, July and August- 11 months between the first and the last. In my own opinion, I dont think that these games should have been allowed to count, as I wasnt being a 'regular' skirmisher, especially as I think Ive played at Xsite twice since then, despite playing every other week at another site.

[Fizzy]

Re: Defence to own RIF's

This was the big problem I found with my registration. My registration is at Xsite airsoft, the site I started skirmishing at. However as it was harder to get to, I more regularly played at AWA herts, Gunman and due to the frequency of Treadstone roadtrips, Ground Zero. So whilst I had basically skirmished every other week for three years before my registration came through, the three dates of my games at Xsite were in September, July and August- 11 months between the first and the last. In my own opinion, I dont think that these games should have been allowed to count, as I wasnt being a 'regular' skirmisher, especially as I think Ive played at Xsite twice since then, despite playing every other week at another site.

Airsoft diary is the way forward! When you sign on, take your diary and get the site organiser to sign it on the date you attend. Keep a contact number for the sites you visit, and use your diary as evidence you're a regular skirmisher. If anyone's in doubt you have names and contact numbers as well as signatures