Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

[Sagittarius26]

Systema PTWs, Celcius CTWs and other such weapons. I have heard a lot about these weapons in the airsoft community. I might somewhere down the line, get one...if I win the lottery or save up for the 5 years. Which brings me to the question of why are they so expensive? At a grand plus a pop, I'm hoping it has a built in microwave so that I can heat up last nights take-away for when I'm at a skirmish.

Another question I have is why does the police and military use these weapons for training purposes? Surely a GBB would seem more appropriate given the more realism it has over an AEG.

I do apologize to the forum, if this seems like a stupid question. But the curiosity is growing...

[god84]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

Good question.. I want to know why police use them too.

I can only go on my DTW but at 380 with a few bits and a further 100 thrown on new electronics I would say it's superb. The response is great and unlike gas I can use it in the cold.

[Sir Stephen]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

So far as why they are so expensive, simple:

As with anything it cost time and money to design, produce. These systems are more complicated than regular aeg's, especially with the electronics systems used.
Because these things take longer to perfect, they cost more, so you need to increase the price of your item to make that money back.
(bear in mind they don't make many different models, so its not like if WE suddenly decide to make a new body to chuck a gearbox they already have inside)

materials of construction: these things aren't made of pot metal, high quality material, high cost.


why do police use them? no idea

[seansamurai1]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

They are still made from pot metal, just higher quality pot metal than your average AEG.

[seansamurai1]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

Missed my edit.
I'm not sure a majority use them for training.
I've certainly never once seen or heard military using PTWs as training weapons.
I've pretty sure the police have played with GBBRs for training.

[N_Scooby]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

They command a premium because they can. Simple economics of retail - if you aim at the top of the market because your product is different and stands out, you price it high because you know you are not going to sell huge quantities of them.

A PTW with a £1200 price tag will have cost less than £50 to make (your average £300 AEG will have cost less than £20 to manufacture). The factory that makes them has to make a profit (they will have placed orders on many component factories who all have to make profits), the company that placed the order on the factory (who probably designed them in the first place) has to make a profit, the wholesaler who buys in bulk and distributes to shops has to make a profit, then lastly the shop has to make a profit. Each time the price is probably doubling (if it isn't it simply not worth bothering with). Remember all these companies have rent, rates, utilities, wages and taxes to pay. These companies have to make profits to stay in business.

[km2339]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

A PTW with a £1200 price tag will have cost less than £50 to make (your average £300 AEG will have cost less than £20 to manufacture).

^ If true, that makes me sad!

[N_Scooby]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

Missed my edit.
I'm not sure a majority use them for training.
I've certainly never once seen or heard military using PTWs as training weapons.
I've pretty sure the police have played with GBBRs for training.

I would expect mainly USA agencies would have used them. I doubt any of our law enforcement / military would be that interested in AR platform and with MP5's being used less and less I can't see much market for them. A G36 based GBBR would probably serve more use these days.

[seansamurai1]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

Most us forces use simunition these days or the laser stuff for bigger ranges.

[N_Scooby]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

^ If true, that makes me sad!

Its not just airsoft, it happens to everything you use everyday. That £500 sofa you sit your backside down on each evening cost less than £20 to make in China, the £500 TV you watch has cost peanuts to make and has just been priced to match what a competitors TV of an equal spec is priced in the market at. Big companies like Sony post massive profits each year and they only sell to wholesalers etc at an eighth of retail price.

That £300 average AEG a UK based Shop is selling has £50 of VAT in it. Your average man on the street sees a £300 price tag while a business sees it as £250 + VAT. They only work on the £250. That will have had to include import duties & shipping, as well as buying the gun itself, and that includes any profit in the £250. That gun may well sit on the shelf for 6 months until it is sold - that is completely dead money.

[Sagittarius26]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

I get the fundamentals of economics and such, and that the business needs to make profit on these weapons to pay for their expenses and to make the business grow. And I get that there are other costs are involved in the pricing of the product, such as Duty and Taxes. But I think we can all agree that bar PTWs, Marui guns are the next highly priced guns with about an average price of a Marui weapon about £350. The highest priced Marui weapon is the Reece rifle at about £550, which is about £350 cheaper than the lowest priced fully built PTW from Systema (MP5)

I understand now, that Systema guns are made with high quality materials, and for that alone I wouldn't bat an eye lid if they were to cost about £100-£150 more than the Reece. But, I haven't mentioned the performance yet. Is the performance of a PTW £300-£700 greater than that of a Marui gun? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Systema internals are bad in any way (I haven't used one). But Marui ones aren't exactly bad either.

Now, I'm not trying to knock Systema or any PTW owners in any shape or form. I just want to understand the pricing, and I guess the whole "used as training weapon for law enforcement and military forces" is a question that no-one will ever know the answer to.

Also SeanSamurai, is that true? That they just use higher quality pot metal?

[Blackheart]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

While there are the facts mentioned above, there is also the 'elite' angle. In ANY given market there will always be high end products where the extra cost is not linear to the extra performance BUT people (some people) will always buy these highest end products because quite simply they are the highest end product! Most of us will have done it at some point in our lives for something and as long as we do do this it will always happen.
A common phrase for this phenomenon is 'scene tax'. You pay over the odds for something because it's supposed to be the best.

[HuntR]

Re: Systema/Celcius etc. Why...

Also SeanSamurai, is that true? That they just use higher quality pot metal?

While a fair few of the parts are steel, the body itself is indeed monkey metal. Zinc Alloy is the correct term for it, but it's always been known to me as monkey metal. You can get aftermarket high grade aluminium receivers. But they cost a pretty penny on an already expensive platform