DMR's

[LukeCDC]

Basicaly what i want to know is, where did DMR's come from, why do they have separate ruling, what constitutes a DMR and what purpurse do they serve in airsoft??

This stems from the fact that my local is looking to introduce a DMR ruling and i was asked my opinion, but i decided to find out what a DMR is before i make an opinion, because at the moment a DMR to me is a M4 running at 400fps with a grub screw to stop you putting it into full auto which i dont like the idea of....

So you lovely people of ZeroIn, what is a DMR


L.


Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[tackle]

Re: DMR's

Its the bastard lovechild of an assault rifle & a sniper rifle, its real world counterpart is meant to give sections a longer reach in a contact, generally issued to a section member who has demonstrated above average marksmanship.
In the ******* ***** its just an excuse to run something at higher than usual fps, the trade off being no full auto.
Their not everybodys cup of tea, me, I think their the way forward, as I'm fed up with the usual hosefest that too many players rely on to get a kill, with little or no skill involved.

[Caldymoose]

Re: DMR's

There is no 'fixed' definition of what constitutes and airsoft DMR. There are merely guidelines. In the real world, DMRs, or Designated Marksman Rifles were designed to allow certain infantry soldiers to accurately and effective engage the bad guys at a longer range than they could with a 'normal' assault rifle. In some circumstances, a soldier with a DMR could engage targets with much more accuracy (and thus efficiency) and have just as greater impact on the battle as a soldier carrying an LMG with 1,000 rounds of ammo. Now, airsofters love to copy all this real world stuff, but there are some things which exist in the real world which do not translate well into airsoft. RPGs for example...

Each site has a different definition of what constitutes an airsoft DMR, but the general rule of thumb(s) are:

1. FPS over 350.
Some sites don't allow them above 350 (or even 328, look at Ireland). Some sites say 370, some 400, some 420, some 450 and some even go up to 500.

2. Locked to semi auto
Many state this must be at least mechanical, and not just electronically. Locking mechanically depends on the rifle and the internals, but can be drilling the receiver and adding a grub screw, cutting the selector plate or some other form. Electronically via some programmable Mosfets. But, many sites do not like the lock being soley electrical, as its far to easy to change that in game and flout the rule. That said, many mechanical locks could be removed or bypassed if somebody is really desperate enough....

3. A Minimum engagement distance.
This is usually in place with these rifles in the same way it is with bolt action sniper rifles. Higher velocity rounds require more time in flight to lose some energy before it hits its target. You don't want to be point blanking somebody with a 400 FPS rifle now... (well, you shouldn't be if your playing by the rules!!)

From here on in, the whole thing gets a bit grey...

- Some sites will state the rifle must be a 'full sized' rifle, such as an M16, G3, SLR, SR-25 etc, and not a short, such as an MP5. The idea behind this is to prevent some nugget adding a 'l33t scope' to his MP5, then upping the FPS and running round with it generally causing havoc in game. In the real world these rifles are used at distances upwards of 400 odd meters, not to clear a building.

- Some sites say the rifle can only be used with mid caps or a small high cap to prevent the users from just spraying rounds downrange

- Some say the user must carry a sidearm or secondary weapon below the 350 (or whatever limit the site is using for its 'normal' weapons)

Some places have even stricter rules, such as how fast these rifles can fire. If they do have an electronic fire control unit, it must be set to no more than 1 round per second, or 1 round per 5 seconds or something.

In terms of what a DMR is, its a rifle which aims to get its round further downrange with a high degree of accuracy to enable the user to engage targets further away. But, this being airsoft, we're all firing little 6mm plastic balls of varyingly light weight. So forget the whole idea of 'I'll be bale to hit a tin can off a roof 120m away with my G3'. It. Doesn't. Happen.
Even the best airsoft tech on the market today, with the best gun setups can make any rifle shoot as far as a DMR. The argument of more FPS = more range has been proven (see the airsoft trajectory project) to be false (I'm talking about the difference between 350 and say 400 here).

An R Hopped rifle shooting below 350, with the correct ammo and barrel combo can hit 70m on a good day, and thats give or take about as far as many airsoft rifles can realistically and accurately shoot. Does adding another 50 FPS to that rifle make all the difference? Not really...DMRs are generally expensive rifles to build, and theres no wonder the classified section is always full of these things being sold on. Many are described as ex project guns. Which translates to "I spent way to much money on this, found it didnt shoot further than every other rifle at my site, got pissed off with it, now want an extortionate amount of money for it"

The TL:DR version.

Higher FPS (circa 400, but varies)
Locked to semi (mechanically at least, usually also electronically locked)
MED (circa 20m or so)
Usually with some form of magnified scope (Usually far too big and powerful for airsoft, which means people are looking at targets about 300m further away than they can hit)

My personal view on them, generally not worth it. Might be cool, and if anybody makes a GBB SR-25 I'd buy one in a heartbeat, but not that practical

[wilko129]

Re: DMR's

For me it has to be a rifle that can be used as a Designated Marksman Rifle in real life so an M4 does not really cut it for me. Although currently I am making a long barrelled M4 into a kind of DMR/battle rifle so I guess I am kinda a hypocrite...

[Scotty Dog]

Re: DMR's

Caldy Moose has nailed it all tbh; although I think the main benefit that is overlooked with the 400fps is that you can get greater accuracy if you use the higher joule output to run heavier BBs. The benefit being that you can run a heavier BB, e.g. a .38 or above, without it moving at slug speed.

[rjb]

Re: DMR's

Basicaly what i want to know is, where did DMR's come from, why do they have separate ruling, what constitutes a DMR and what purpurse do they serve in airsoft??

This stems from the fact that my local is looking to introduce a DMR ruling and i was asked my opinion, but i decided to find out what a DMR is before i make an opinion, because at the moment a DMR to me is a M4 running at 400fps with a grub screw to stop you putting it into full auto which i dont like the idea of....

So you lovely people of ZeroIn, what is a DMR


L.


Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

Looks like I was a bit slow in pressing send, but the following confirms some of the previous posts...

The previous poster is quite right in saying that a DMR lies somewhere between a sniper rifle and assault rifle. As DMRs typically fire higher powered ammunition (i.e. 7.62mm x 51) they tend to have greater range and accuracy than the average infantry rifle, but retain much of the capability in terms of size and practicality. Some good articles online I suspect.

In the ******* *****, a DMR is an accurised airsoft rifle that has a bit more range and greater accuracy than a standard AEG due to many fields allowing a a higher FPS limit; but perhaps most importantly due to the huge amounts of work that a lot of folk put into their guns... Its all about consistency. Having a bit of extra reach is hugely useful within a squad in a variety of scenarios and there have been a fair few folk on here and other forums discussing DMR tactics.

There are many ways of mechanically locking (an electronic lock is generally not acceptable) a DMR to semi-only from the classic grub screw (horrible) to much more elegant solutions. However it is done, it is a necessity. DMR's firing over around 375fps must be semi-auto only to stay within as yet legally untested recommendations set out in June 2014's 'Guide on firearms licencing law'. Once semi-only, DMR's can 'legally' fire up to 520fps, although nobody in their right mind would allow that kind of set-up on their site, so many sites allow a limit of 400, 420 or 450 fps with a minimum engagement distance to ensure that hits have around 1J residual energy at target.

That is all...

R

[tackle]

Re: DMR's

To be honest, running a dmr is as a much a state of mind thing, as opposed to a genuine tactical advantage, using certain types of gun for specific roles that mean you have to alter your playing style accordingly.
Prob why I like them, my days of hairing around like usain bolt have passed lol.
Caldymoose's point about these being the domain of the "long" gun is spot on, rules need to be reasonably strict on their use, while at the same time site owners need to demonstrate an acceptance that players will be experimenting with various long rifle projects to achieve this.

[LukeCDC]

Re: DMR's

Thank you all for the info so far, i now see why the extra FPS, two things though, i remember once bring told that hop runbers work better at 270-330fps, possibly cobblers i dont know, secondly, i understand the airsofters need to duplicate real life, but where did an AEG become a DMR and are there any gas DMR's out there?

Although i have to ask why has no-one standerdised a DMR rule or is that a door best remained closed?

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[RitchieTheBrit]

Re: DMR's

i remember once bring told that hop runbers work better at 270-330fps, possibly cobblers i dont know

Hop rubbers come in compounds of varying hardness, the higher FPS setups need harder compounds. If you're going to do a DMR properly, the generally accepted route is an R hop.

[TheJim]

Re: DMR's

At my local site it's as follows:

- Up to 500fps
- 30 metre minimum engagement rule.
- Physically locked to semi auto only
- Sidearm required

[rjb]

Re: DMR's

...i have to ask why has no-one standerdised a DMR rule or is that a door best remained closed?

Is anything in airsoft really standardised? Travelling around sites in the UK, there is a huge variation in what's allowed and what's not.

FPS limits from 328fps all the way up to 370fps for Full auto AEGs...
Some allow full-auto in CQB, most do not...
Bang rule allowed at some whereas others (sensibly) go for an optional surrender rule...
Some allow BFG's some do not

I guess it's partly due to insurance but arguably mostly down to the discretion of the site operators. Some are really quite sensible and review the evidence whereas others do what they did when they worked for X, Y or Z site as a marshall few years back...

Back to your original point: In my view allowing DMRs is a positive step and as long as the site operators give some real thought to how to implement them, I don't see an issue.

R

[PureSilver]

Re: DMR's

Basicaly what i want to know is, where did DMR's come from, why do they have separate ruling, what constitutes a DMR and what purpurse do they serve in airsoft??

Caldymoose basically has it right. DMRs are halfway between an assault rifle and a sniper rifle - intended to bridge the gap between assault rifle (fully-automatic, 300m range, lightweight cartridge) and Bolt-Action Sniper Rifle ('BASR') (bolt-action, 900m range, heavyweight cartridge) with a middle-of-the-road approach - semi-automatic, 600m range, and intermediate cartridge.

They make arguably a lot more sense in airsoft than true sniper rifles, because of the law of diminishing returns. For example, let's say that a regular assault rifle AEG gets you a ROF of about 1500-2100rpm, and a range of about 45m. A highly-upgraded BASR gets you a range of maybe 90m, but it cuts your ROF to more like 15-21rpm, less for aimed fire. In exchange for an extra 50% of range, you suffer a 99% loss of firepower. In the real world, the extra range of a sniper rifle over an assault rifle is huge (600m+) and gives you an overwhelming advantage in standoff. In airsoft, though, that extra range is probably five seconds' sprint - so if your target is a fast runner, he may well be able to close the distance between you and him to a range where he can shoot back at you (at almost a hundred times your ROF) before you can take a follow-up shot. By contrast, a DMR gets you only a smaller amount of extra range (say 25%) but keeps your ROF up to a level (say 120+rpm) where the trade-off starts to make sense, rather than being a crippling disability.

secondly, i understand the airsofters need to duplicate real life, but where did an AEG become a DMR and are there any gas DMR's out there?

AEGs didn't really 'become' DMRs because a DMR isn't necessarily an AEG - like you say, it could also be gas powered. That said, AEG replicas of weapons used as DMRs in the real world have been around since at least the TM M14 (arguably the TM M16) - so a very, very long time. Think about how long the TM PSG-1 (a classic semi-automatic-only AEG marksman's weapon) has been around. If you're sticking to my suggestion that a gun should only be eligible to be used as a DMR if it is a replica of a real-steel rifle that is also used as a DMR, then there are a number of gas options you could use:

1. WE SVD - The SVD is generally accepted as the first DMR as we know it (a semiautomatic weapon intended for squad support up to 600m) and was and is used by any number of countries - especially ex-Warsaw Pact and Third World nations - as a DMR. That makes the rather unpopular WE GBBR SVD eligible.
2. WE M14 - Although originally a battle rifle, the M14 has stuck around as a DMR in various branches of the US Armed Forces in at least five different versions, including the original M21 and M25 rifles, the interim M14 DMR, and no less than seven individual revisions of the EBR. The WE GBBR M14 doesn't have the best reputation but it is eligible.
3. WE SCAR-H - The SCAR-H has been adopted by a number of militaries as a DMR, especially in its SSR configuration (not yet available as GBBR). WE's soon-to-be-released GBBR SCAR-H will be a good option for replicas of this.
4. AR-15 - By far the easiest to acquire, and most commonly replicated in GBBR form, the various GBBR AR-15s on the market can be easily configured to DMR specification. Although most countries have moved to AR-15 variants or AR-10 hybrids firing the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge, some nations have kept a DMR based on the standard 5.56x25mm NATO AR-15. Good examples include the US' SDM-R, SAM-R, and Mk.12 SPR. Good basis for conversion would be WA-pattern GBBRs and variants (G&P WOCs, Inokatsu AR-15s, ViperTech AR-15s etc.), WE-pattern GBBRs and variants, and KWA's LM4 platform. Unfortunately a GBBR version of the KAC SR-25-series 7.62x51mm DMR has not yet been released; that would be an obvious candidate for DMR use.
5. VFC HK417 - An up-and-coming DMR in use with a wide variety of nations, and recently released by VFC (licensed by Umarex); this is a logical GBBR DMR choice.

Hope that helps.

[Boo-Sabum Ben]

Re: DMR's

Didn't you already try and make one with a P90?

[LukeCDC]

Re: DMR's

That was a joke, i wanted to know what peoples reaction would be.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Heinz]

Re: DMR's

Didn't you already try and make one with a P90?

Anyone who tries that needs beating. With a chair. Repeatedly.

As far as Airsoft is concerned, i've got no issues with people building DMR's that are based upon real-world guns. Where it gets stupid is with people building ones on P90's/MP5's/UMPs - anything that doesn't have a real world DMR/SPR equivalent really. As to their use, i've seen a few people misusing the DMR rule, and it really annoys the crap out of me.