Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

[shamus5178]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

TBH, Steves post above nails it. I have lost count how many sales threads I have have seen on here saying exactly that. Words like "shots like a laser, awesome range and real eye turner" but will px for a TM recoil. Now before I get flamed to death, I have been lucky to have owned both. I had a custom PTW built by Project PTW, and to be fair, when it worked, it was good. But, it seemed to spend more time not working, fussy about what ammo it liked and more time in transit getting fixed than i actually got playing time from. I too took the plunge and bought a TM recoil which I converted to a L119 and maxed out. I know own three recoils, one of which is completely stock and I love- use it just as much as the maxed out other two.

As has been said repeatedly above, PTWs as a whole, never moved with the times, or indeed rested on their laurels when everyone else caught up and moved past them.

[Siggi]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I've only ever thought of them as an airsoft gun with a different type of gearbox (maybe stronger/more reliable).

[Kodiak]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I remember back in the days when I was about 19, PTW's were quite rare then. Someone would say "hey, what gun's that mate?", to which they'd reply "a PTW" and then get about 2-3 people standing round asking questions about it.

I'd see them every so often coming at going from my old home site. I quit for a long time, but since I started playing again I haven't seen any. I remember the days that I was one of the first owners of a TM recoil shock SOPMOD; they'd only just started coming into the country and I got one of the first ones available from Zero One. First day I took it (after people asking about it and having a few shots with it) there was one player who's gun failed on him mid-game.

This guy was a bit of a knob, one of those "I'M IN THE RESERVES, THEREFORE I AM THE BEST AT AIRSOFT" kind of guys, but we tolerated him. I gave him my gun to use for a round, and when he gave it back I knew 100% for sure that he thought it was the shiznit. Even more so than the PTW's that'd occasionally appear on site. He'd never, ever compliment anyone else's gear or guns, but he said to me "that's good that is mate" or something along those lines.

The gun was stock as well. No battery mods, no upgraded components; they weren't even available for the SOPMOD back then. I remember battling one of the PTW "my gun am bestest" types in a woodland area. There was kind of a ravine between us, so both of us were on the high ground either side shooting at eachother. His gun came close but didn't reach, and I took him out before he had me. I bumped into him when he was walking to respawn and I was moving up, and I knew he was the one with a PTW. He was exactly like this kind of guy Siggi encountered;

"I doubt it, my gun's a £1500 PTW!"

So the point to my story is this: I personally think that since the release of the TM SOPMOD M4 back years and years ago, PTW's have fallen to the wayside. PTW's just haven't kept up with TM's new innovations, and the appeal of a Systema PTW no longer justifies the absurd price tag when you can get a TM recoil series gun that's better all round for half the price. Sure, they may not disassemble the 'real' way, but honestly who gives a shit?

[Fizzy]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

As has been said repeatedly above, PTWs as a whole, never moved with the times, or indeed rested on their laurels when everyone else caught up and moved past them.

They did make some effort in about 2008. Previously their reliability was much worse, the bodies were prone to cracking and their wide bore barrels (something like a 6.08/6.10, from memory) meant accuracy wasn't all that either.

They slightly improved reliability, and started putting in 6.04 barrels. Heck,they even broke from the norm and made something other than a M4/M16. The problem is, for what 'extra' you got it was very expensive. Then the TM NGRS and MOSFETs came along...

"I doubt it, my gun's a £1500 PTW!"

I've never seen first hand this snobbery, and I've been playing a long time, but the bosses at the site I marshalled went to an open day at another site one day. They intervened in an incident of non-hit taking, and during the argument, someone piped up with "Dave couldn't have missed...he uses a PTW!"

I'm sure much chuckling ensued!

[Dentonboy]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I've never come across PTW owner elitism to my knowledge; can't recall if I've ever seen one on the field either.

But from what I've seen the TM recoils do out of the box, I cannot imagine why anyone who could would buy anything else (electric).

Having had a play with my new TM M4 MWS; I can't imagine even buying electric again.

[mightyjebus]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

any new guy or girl reading this could come away with the impression that the TM EBB's are the best thing since sliced bread but to be honest they are exactly like the Tm M4A1 which came out years ago. Same range, same magic hop rubber, same old electrics. It's not until you stick a BTC inside the EBB that things get a bit of a boost. There is a BTC for the standard AEG and I imagine it improves the performance just as much. Sure you get the Clackety-Clack with the EBB's but this actually makes it less accurate on auto than the old M4's. Stick a 11.1V LIPO in them and you get the feeling they are going to explode any minute. Mine didn't but it did shake itself to pieces after every game.
The other thing about the EBB is quite franky they are a pain in the bum to work on. Taking the gearbox apart is painful, not cutting the wires on the stock tube is painful and god forbid you want to make a rear wired version front wired. Battery placement on the EBB and PTW is dreadful.
No one has mentioned the clones of the EBB either. The Army version of the M4 is pretty good for the price. It's hard to tell the difference between the TM and Army unless you start to strip them down. CYMA made a pretty decent AK EBB (Type 3) and is the only clone of the AK EBB series (mind you even this is only about 80% clone).

So for the new people who might read this...The TM EBB's had a part to play in the decline of the PTW however they aren't the best AEG since sliced bread. They are good and out the box perform just as well as you would expect a TM to perform. They can be improved with a BTC Spectre mosfet and a couple more upgrades. If you can't stretch to the price tag of a TM EBB then have a look at the ARMY range of EBB's. They will require a bit of work to get them to TM standard but it can be done. If you want to know what could have been the best AEG ever then read below.........



A TOP M4A1 shell ejecting AEG.
Once the old sweats have stopped throwing their keyboards in the air and spitting coffee everywhere..I said could have been. If TOP had released the mag adapter so that you didn't need to have the shells inside them then it acted like a normal AEG. it had real potential. I've got one. I love it to bits. It's completely useless for skirmishing unless I want to spend half the day trying to find the ejected shells unless I mount a RIS poly bag holder to the side which spoils the realism slightly. But it does have decent recoil, the bolt goes back and forth like the real thing and the quality is pretty good. Sadly TOP never seemed to release the mag adapter and very few people bought them which is a shame.

[Tiercel]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

Id say its more likely that theres only a very small percentage of players who are willing/able to drop £2k on a toy gun thats (arguably) no better than a £200 one... and by now its pretty much reached the peak of potential buyers and dwindling out.

[Dentonboy]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

The money I'd pay to see Mighty's collection...

[CKinnerley]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

The GBLS has a good shot at being what the non-shell-ejecting version of the TOP could've been. If that gun turns out well once (if) they start producing their 'standard' version and it's reliable with decent performance, I'd be hovering over that buy button; it could certainly kill the PTW even more (even being in the same sort of price bracket).

[mightyjebus]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I've been following the GBLs with interest. Looks like a good idea but the price tag is very high. Let's hope it turns out to be a good AEG.

[Abbadon101]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

The money I'd pay to see Mighty's collection...

The number of AKs he owns alone is more than the total number of guns most people will own in their entire airsoft life. His garage looks like a Mexican cartels armoury.

[mightyjebus]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

it is a Mexican cartels armoury

[Dentonboy]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

I can imagine...I've followed in Mighty's wake a few times at CSW.

[Sagittarius26]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

My experience in this area involves currently owning a TM416, and having skirmished with my uncle's Systema PTW a few times. Not for a whole day, just a couple games every now and again. I'll say that if you have the money, then go for it, the cheaper alternative is a TM NGRS. I personally enjoy using the recoils more due to (this might sound stupid) the reloading action including having to hit bolt catch and obviously the recoil.

I'd say that Recoils are probably a contributing factor to killing off the PTW market, but I think innovation from other companies, the overall airsoft industr and the economy probably have more to do with it. Back in the day, (like I'm talking during mid to late 2000's which isn't really back in the day, but whatever), if you wanted a good out of the box gun you had either the PTW's, TM, Classic Army and ICS. And if you did get a gun that were from other companies, they were alright, but they had their problems and if you were looking for replacement parts they were difficult to come by. However now, there are so many more companies now that produce good out of the box guns, like ASG, G&G, G&P, Krytac and VFC. And now it is so easy to get replacement/upgrade parts. Also as some of you have already mentioned, Systema hasn't innovated as much since they started manufacturing airsoft guns. So I think a bigger factor of the PTW market getting killed off is to do with the industry getting bigger and people's disposable income getting lower due to the economic climate. That's just what I think.

[tackle]

Re: Have Recoils killed off the PTW market?

Having no experience with either ptw's or recoils (yet), my opinion is based upon reviews I've read & my own (twisted lol) logic.
I'd have to agree that the recoils have probably hit ptw sales hard, similar features & realism for less than half the price, plus 99.9 of uk users want them for propelling bb's at each other, nothing more, so everything else is just a gimmick, irrespective of the realism, we have nothing to gain from them.
Obviously players in the USA etc may benefit from using ptw's in airsoft that translate to muscle memory training within the "real steel" world.
On a personal note, current circumstances mean my funds are committed elsewhere, so I'm having to "make do" lol with my already extensive armoury (which adequately propel bb's) with no plans to buy any more, but when things improve I might consider a recoil, but never a ptw, if I chucked upwards of 1k in to a glorified aeg, don't think I'd sleep at night !.
Am I the only one that thinks this ?........... Or am I a tightwad lol.