Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

[Planemo]

I have decided that I am going to go all-out to get the best possible trigger response I can from my ICS L85. As a test, I have tried both a 9.6v (shows 11.8v fully charged no load) 3700Mah and a 12v (shows 14.8v fully charged no load) 1600Mah. I already have an AB FET and use Deans XT on everything. The response is a lot better with the FET and 12v pack than the standard gun was with an 8.4v but I want it super quick now.

The 9.6v gives around 16.5 rps, the 12v gives around 21. However, there appears to be very little in it in terms of trigger response for a single shot. I believe this is mainly due to the extra voltage of the 12v pack being cancelled out by it's poor Mah and struggling to initially spin up the motor (ICS Turbo 3000).

I'm not after a ROF monster at all, I just did the battery test to see where improvements could be made. I'm guessing that going LiPo is a given based on their awesome current output, and maybe a Systema Turbo or Magnum, but which one?

Also, if I am going LiPo, I was thinking I may as well go for a 14.8v rather than an 11.1v. After all, I have plenty of space in the handguard. Will the Systema motor tolerate this?

Then we are onto the gearbox - I appreciate that increased wear will be inevitable and I can handle this, but I have heard of different ratio gears - would this help?

I am after any and all suggestions really. For info, it won't need to provide over 350fps.

Cheers!

[jagillham]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

21/sec on a 12v battery.

Something is very wrong

In general though, Lipo is better as it delivers the power quicker, than the Nihm equivalent.

Also consider shortening the length of the trigger pull.

[dth1]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

ASCU - Airsoft Smart Control Unit - maybe an answer to your prayers.....

[badas]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

SHS Ultra torque motor (if it fits), 11V lipo, good shim job, metal bearings and mosfet.

11v usually kills trigger mech after a few games with no mosfet.

[Chandler]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

ASCU - Airsoft Smart Control Unit - maybe an answer to your prayers.....

Won't fit

High torque motor, high speed gears, bushes not bearings, 330fps spring, Swissed up piston.
A GOOD 11v or 14v battery, depending on what motor you have

[Planemo]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

21/sec on a 12v battery.

Something is very wrong

In general though, Lipo is better as it delivers the power quicker, than the Nihm equivalent.

Also consider shortening the length of the trigger pull.

Do you really think so? I have just checked it again with the 12v pack straight off the charger (an ECU type) and it hit 22.5rps. Both battery packs are new, I won't mention the make on here but they are well known in the UK. I don't think the rps go any higher than that. The gun has never missed a beat since new. It's also shimmed to perfection. It's never behaved oddly so I assumed all is OK with it. Remember the 12v batt is only a 1600 mah...and it's on the stock ICS motor which I believe is designed more for torque than speed.

I am aware of lipos current potential, I have used them for years in my RC helis but cheers anyway. Re the trigger, I'm not sure I can do much on that front given the ICS design which uses a sear setup.

Re everyone else, it's already got an AB fet...and I forgot to mention the piston is already very much swiss cheesed!

So the SHS Ultra torque could be a contender then... are they nearly up there with the Systema motors? Anyone used one with a 14.8v lipo?

[jagillham]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

I was getting 23/sec on a standard gear set using G&P M120 and large 8.4v battery

[badas]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

I use SHS ultra torque in everything i can do, they are great just youtube them for some videos

Bot tried 14v but it handles 11v's easy.

Thought you were not after high high rof? No need for 14v :P

EDIT: SHS Ultra Torques apparently deliver 30rps on stock guns etc. I was hitting 40 to 50rps with internal mods (short stroking etc on 11v).

[jagillham]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

Oh, if you really after response but not ROF, look at the Extreme Fire mosfet range. They do one where you can have 100% power go to the first shot, but then define XX % for the following shots.

So super response, without crazy ROF side effect!

[Planemo]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

Cheers guys, I think the best thing to do is get the SHS motor first and see what happens. I have 11.1v 2250 mah lipos from my helis, so will try that as well. I think I have reached the limitations of the ICS motor, no matter what battery I use with it. I have the same motor in my short stroked SCAR and that has never hit over 22rps either.

Re highspeed gearsets, I am assuming this wont help response? I am guessing that it would actually increase the load on the motor which would reduce iniial response, albeit maybe increase rof which isnt what I am after.

The Extreme Fire mosfet sounds like a good idea, I was actually going to disable full auto in the planned setup as I dont want the resulting high rof as it wont be short stroked.

I dont think theres much more weight I can lose in the piston/head assembly as both are polycarbonate so I think that route is out. Looks like its just down to sorting the motor and playing around with batteries then?

[Bleedout]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

To be honest mate you will be Struggeling to get a fast trigger pickup as i belivet he SA80 has the same "trigger on a rod" like the RS type 97 series and FN2000's.
Means the trigger moves a rod which in turn moves the switch assy in the gearbox behind the magwell.
In both SA80s i have owned the trigger pull was quite long due to this

[Planemo]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

Not on the ICS version The switch assembly is directly on top of the trigger, and uses a sear mechanism to snap shut the contacts by a spring rather than the speed of your finger. Its pretty clever and reduces contact wear although a bit pointless if using a fet. I am going to look at the assembly anyway, and see if I can reduce the trigger travel whilst still getting a correct action.

[private parts]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

try a 11.1v lipo 40-50c, im using 1 with a fet and the response is awesome on a standard g&p m4

[Planemo]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

Bit of an update- I don't like leaving threads unfinished

I ordered a brand new SHS High Torqe from someone on here who I can't mention unfortunately - the service was excellent.

Two words for the SHS motor - Jesus Christ! I always thought the ICS3000 motor had a good rep and was pretty high torque for a standard AEG motor. I wasn't expecting the SHS to make a huge difference but boy was I wrong. On a straight swop-out ROF went up from 20 to 30rps on my 9.6v 3700 Nimh and trigger response is unbelieveable. I haven't even tried it on my 11.1 lipo or my 12v Nimh because unfortunately my standard ICS swiss-cheesed piston decided to let go! My fault - I have obviously gone too wild with the holes. This piston has served me well though- I modified it when I first got the gun 3 years ago and god knows how many rounds it must have done. There isn't a mark on it other than the recent fracture so they can't be too bad. I will get another piston asap though and give more of an update then.

I have been working on reducing the trigger travel too - stock was 11mm measured at the end of the trigger. I have it down to 6.8mm now by using a discreet travel adjuster (small black self-tapping screw!). This has taken a lot of travel off the back end and makes a massive difference to 'feel' but I would like to get another couple of mm off the intial pull. This is trickier though and I've not yet worked out how I am going to do it.

So in short the SHS has totally transformed this gun and made it everything I wanted. I think I am going to disable full auto to avoid breakages so I can try my 12v Nimh or I may even try a 14.8 lipo. I might get a video up when done to show the reduction in trigger travel and response.

Thanks for the help, couple of pics below of the rather sorry piston and trigger stop:

[North West Outpost]

Re: Ultimate trigger response without buying a Systema..?

LOL....I try to tell people just how good these motors are. At least some people are willing to try these things. The ICS are completly crap by comparrison. In fact there is no comparrison.

I have used these motors on 14.8 they are wild, but if you want my advise you will have very very good trigger response even from say a small 2200mAh 30C 7.4. That should still give you mid to high 20's per sec.

I wouldn't say you have overdone it on the holes do the same again and if you are feeling adventurous use a larger spring something like an SHS M110 you can use either standard ratio or 13:1's which ever you prefer and short stroke by 4 teeth. Sorbo to correct aoe and that will give you very close to 350 and super fast trigger response. Even with a 7.4.

I wouldn't bother with the ASCU either as good as they are. Just be a little carefull using an AB fet things can get very warm on fast continuous semi fire. If you get any problems you can always ditch the AB fet and use a simple fet with thermal protection, even if it means using a stronger spring and clipping it to achieve the fps. You should find with the stiff spring and neo magnets that you won't be getting any over run.

edit,

On second thoughts don't make the holes right at the back but the others will be fine.