New limits?

[Troll]

Hi guys just thought i would let you know, if you already didn't that the fps limits are possibly being changed. Sorry if there is already a post about this but here you go.

http://www.ukapu.org.uk/lethality_UKARA.pdf

[SAS Scott]

Re: New limits?

Sorry link doesn't work what are the new limits ??

Cheers.

[jagillham]

Re: New limits?

There is a post, and there is no change for the foreseeable future.

Only way there will be change is if....

1. A new law is introduced to define lethality
2. Case law is established in a court of law by the successful prosecution of somebody.

So no need to panic just yet

[Troll]

Re: New limits?

Ok sorry it's

aeg-370fps

semi and bolt-500fps

looking good :D

[Caveira]

Re: New limits?

OP, have you actually bothered to read the report?

It sure doesn't look like you have!

[B.E.N.]

Re: New limits?

Here's the other end of the stick mate, you have the wrong one.

[old_and_slow]

Re: New limits?

I dont think anything is 'looking good'.

What is of concern (to me anyway) is that the FSS and ACPO have obviously got airsoft in mind. Therefore any 'airsoft incidents' will pop up onto thier radar and w may find further restrictions introduced.

The saying 'out of sight, out of mind' is a valid one.

Lets hope some oik doesn't rob his local pound shop with a springer!!

[B.E.N.]

Re: New limits?

I dont think anything is 'looking good'.

What is of concern (to me anyway) is that the FSS and ACPO have obviously got airsoft in mind. Therefore any 'airsoft incidents' will pop up onto thier radar and w may find further restrictions introduced.

The saying 'out of sight, out of mind' is a valid one.

Lets hope some oik doesn't rob his local pound shop with a springer!!

This is an excerpt from the communication sent out from the UKARA Chairman...

"The action was initialed because some of our members were having issues with their local Police Forces about what they were selling and whether they needed to be RFDs or not to sell particular items.

The process started nearly a year ago when I located the main contact and arranged a visit.

We made several trips to the Dorset Police HQ which resulted in the FELWG chairman commissioning the Forensic Science Service FSS to test the lethality of Airsoft Guns"

From what I can read into this is that the testing was done to ensure that the regulation that exists within the airsoft industry isn't undermined by irresponsible retailers trying to bend the rules to sell RIFs to people without a recognised defence.

As a benefit, we now have a definition of what an AIRSOFT gun is in relation to other low powered firearms, that has finally been tested with BB ammo as opposed to airgun shot.

I think it's positive in terms of what sites are able to do with regards to dealing with insurance companies, and also because it demonstrates to the authorities that airsoft IS regulating itself and keen to concrete it's legitimacy.

[Riotharmus]

Re: New limits?

regulated by retailers? that's an interesting future!

to be fair the tests are somewhat limited and flawed in their execution, the whole exercise hasn't actually done anything to clear up the grey areas in which airsoft seems to surround itself in.

[B.E.N.]

Re: New limits?

It's regulated by retailers at the moment isn't it?

Personally, I thought the tests were reasonable, testing penetration damage on a consistent ballistic medium using both full auto fire and single shot... What would you do differently?

[The General]

Re: New limits?

1.3J is the recommended level for full auto. So that is 374-375 fps with .20 is it not? Why do people still keep saying 370 fps?

[Riotharmus]

Re: New limits?

I'm a QA Engineer by profession, it's my job to make sure things adhere to applicable requirements/legislation and that this is documented/evidenced so i may look at this from another angle. What would i do different:

Tests were done a point blank range (barrel to ballistic medium), completely unrealistic

Tests only used one type of RIF (AEG) and report that had trouble gaining consistent FPS yet all the calculations/estimations are done assuming constant FPS

Tests only used one weight of BB, now out of the shooters i know at least 40% use .25g or above which will have a significant difference in kinetic energy values especially at range.. when it comes to the single shot chaps i'd be surprised if ANY used a .2g bb.

Assumptions were made re cumulative damage, these are nigh on impossible to substantiate and again don't reflect the "real" situation. Systematic of not having real players involved in the testing! (for advice and reference, not for targets!)

Moreover, as an airsofter, i'd question what these tests have actually achieved for the sport? if anything they've brought the sword of Damocles a little closer to our heads by "potentially" defining fully auto airsoft weapons that are 375+ fps as Section 5 firearms (i stress potentially, this isn't likely but now it's a definite potential) which has all kind of ramifications for retailers (selling section 5's or as a none Registered Firearms Distributors has a hefting custodial sentence), for Airsofters (owning a section 5 carries up to 10 years imprisonment) and certainly importers (assuming that customs will now also be working to this advice, expect a large number of imports not to make it through).

so again to what benefit were these tests??

as for airsoft already being regulated by retailers... technically, no this isn't the case right now we're subject to the laws of the land. Unfortunately the people that seem to have the major impact on said laws, and the decision making are the retailers in question via UKARA yes... does this mean it's right... no!

There are ways and means of changing the way our hobby is viewed by the law, such as paintballers had to do in the 90's, it just takes an organised body with the right motivations to put it in motion.

[yosser]

Re: New limits?

Thanks Rio for your professional insight - far too many here and elsewhere are too accepting of anything ukara initiated - I agree denitions are probably good in the long term but only if the testing carried out is NOT flawed to start with.

PLAYERS beware - ukara NEVER do anything for the good of the player - they are a retailer organisation and will always look after their concerns (I don't blame them - thats what their remit is) - okay as players we may reap some benefits (they dont want their livelyhoods wiped out) but we MUST look after ourselves as well.

The ramifications are far reaching for airsoft - if you buy a fully auto capable aeg over the 378fps limit - is the really to be considered a section 5 firearm! and I think the whole thing slightly unwholesome that ukara didnt at least consult with ukapu BEFORE going down this route - as it AFFECTS us all.

[Riotharmus]

Re: New limits?

not to scare monger, as i think the talk of Section 5 violations is some way off yet... but Section 5 also covers anything that is easily modified to be capable of shooting at these limits.

So the new quick change spring systems everyone's so happy to see, or the quick change cylinders on a systema give it the potential to be considered an S5 weapon.. and there in lies my concern... we can all tune up our kit, it's part of the hobby.. i don't want it to be the part of the hobby that sees me doing 5yrs hard time in Strangeways.

again, this is taking it to the extreme, but we have to look past the end of our noses and start preparing ourselves as players, to protect what we enjoy.

[Tiercel]

Re: New limits?

Eh I cant see the limits being changed any time soon. What benefit would you really get out of raising the limit for full auto from 350 to 370? Nothing noticeable to be worth the effort. I can kinda appreciate a 500fps semi auto DMR, as thats something of a grey zone, some sites limit ALL AEG's regardless of being a semi locked DMR or not to 350, some allow it up to 400, some up to 450, some sort of standardisation of DMR status would be nice.