Clones Vs Morals

[Caveira]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

The Western manufactures are just as greedy.

I'm guessing you've probably never tried to run a business in a "western" country. The costs involved are huge before you even get started, most of which simply aren't an issue in many far east countries.

For example, if I sold an item at £100 that was manufactured in the UK for a unit cost of £50 (after all the overheads in manufacturing such as plant, wages, power, rates etc etc etc) I'd have to give roughly £20 to the governemt straight off the top in tax. Suddenly my £90 profit is down to £30. That £30 is going towards repaying the money I have invested in setting up the business, which could well run into 10's of millions (and, probably would, if I was running a plant that was efficient enough, and moving enough units, to work on a 50% costs basis). If the initial investment was £10m, I'd need to shift 17,000 of them per year just to match the interest I could have earned if I kept the money in the bank. Even then, I'd still lose 50% of every pound I earned above the new taxation threashold!

Far east manufactureres don't have to provide the level of warranties, pay national insurance, give maternity/paternity or sick pay, cover a fraction of the red tape that businesses do in the west. They don't get sued by prospective employees because of a mis-wording in a job advert, by ex-employees who are just trying it on (but still cost thousand of pounds to defend everytime it happens) and by current employees who don't like the fact they got told off for turning up 10 minutes late as little Johnny was throwing-up before school.

If the same person decides that the cost of setting up this business is too high in the UK, plus he realises that people won't be willing to pay the higher prices needed to cover his costs from manufacturing here), and he moves to the far east, you then just jump up and down on him for the level of profits that you assume he's making while at the same time the human rights idiots give him a full-on rectal exam every time they think he may be using low paid staff. Even then, after his £100 item has been made at (for example) a cost and tax burden of £30, he still has to ship it to the UK and then pays VAT and import duty on it's value. When he sells it, he pays another 20% vat and tax on his profits.

It's simply not as straight forward as people are making out. I was talking to a retailer about getting my hands on an Ino GBBR M4 a while ago and he offered to import one for me. It would have cost me roughly 20% more in pounds than the cost price from HK in dollars. In other words, for a roughly $1000 gun, I'd be paying £1200. Why? Simple, because of the exchange rate, the need for the UK retailer to provide a warranty and potentially be responsible for any issues with it for the next 7 years under the sale of goods act, for the hassle of dealing with UK customs, for paying the vat and duty, to cover the shipping costs and to make a little profit. He worked out the margin he would make on it for me and it was less than £100, out of which he would have to warranty the gun.

[sparrowhawk]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

im not adverse on spending large amounts of money on good quality originals,I have an original CRYE precision Rangers vest and ive recently bought a streamlight TLR-2s which is a £160 pistol torch.....imo its too much but i really wanted it,and if i sell some of my other torches it will cover most of the price...my first holster was an original blackhawk serpa, and i have original trijicon nite sights....can you see i love my glock...anyway...


saying that i would not have been introduced to magpul if it wasnt for the clones, as i cant see the justification of the prices bandied about for PTS, example £25 for an ASAP!!! which is a frigging metal sling hook.. or an AAC 51T blackout Flash Hider again £25.....but from buying the clones and seeing the innovative ideas, colour schemes and cool guchi styling, my mind has been open to possibly sourcing more original PTS....in fact i do have some original PTS, ive just been a bit selective on which bits are worth it and which bits are not

[V.A.K]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

Your ONLY looking at the negative side. Are they providing work despite not the great wages? Yes, very much like the UK also! and the rest of the world for that matter. Also, as a business man already making large sums of profit, I wouldn't personaly care if I was making 1 million less per year due to copies. How greedy should I be and dominate 100% of all possible income. If I said to you right now if you would like to earn a few thousand per month for helping me sell similar products I wouldn't expect a no. Your also forgetting majority of these ''Real'' products say 'Made In China' so either way then. Hope you feel pleased about buying legimate products from companies who pay poor wages. There is no right ot wrong in this discussion. Too many come back answers to the positives and negatives thus making anyone to claim right and wrong simply an opinion which means nothing.

so the army r43 sopmod which copies all of tm's hard work is perfectly acceptable then. also you compare yourself to sweatshop workers. Do sweat shop workers get sick pay? do they have access to the nhs? do they have A minimum wage? Do they have access to a welfare system that helps them? at the end of the day they don't and you do so your argument is invalid.
Also for the record I try to abstain from buying anything made by china but it's hard to do so in the country we live in.

[sparrowhawk]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

so the army r43 sopmod which copies all of tm's hard work is perfectly acceptable then. also you compare yourself to sweatshop workers. Do sweat shop workers get sick pay? do they have access to the nhs? do they have A minimum wage? Do they have access to a welfare system that helps them? at the end of the day they don't and you do so your argument is invalid.
Also for the record I try to abstain from buying anything made by china but it's hard to do so in the country we live in.

before i had to write an essay on the pros of third world sweatshops back in the day, i had the same opinion as you and many other people, however like most things in todays societies...its a lot more complicated than that, and in fact your conclusions on the negatives of sweatshops are very one sided, may i suggest a little bit of research just to gain a balance, im not telling you change your mind but just so you can see the whole picture

[tisane]

The simple fact is without clones and cloning airsoft as a whole would be limited to those that have pockets deeper than the Atlantic, and pretty much TM only with their stupid high prices!!!
And how do we know how much a company like TM spend on R&D?
For all we know it's no more than the cost of the first recoil Scar off the shelf.
We don't and while it can be found cheaper elsewhere people like me who don't have a money tree in the garden will continue to buy cloned.

All of us will have or do have a cloned airsoft product of some sort, because to play the sport we like most have to grab the best value for money, so how anyone can slate clones and cloning in any walk of life is beyond me.

How many airsoft M4s are there out there?
How many of them will have been copied in one way or another from another manufacturer?
To give any sort of choice things have to be copied, if said M4s weren't copied then how many manufacturers would have M4s in their line up, or any other gun for that matter?

[magslap]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

TM was mainly for the japanese market,ive heard many people say that TM couldnt care less about selling outside of japan.
and if we only had TM and other high price guns only,then i for one wouldnt be into airsoft the way i am now.and i bet a lot of people wouldnt either.

TM and the other main makers COULD bring up a legal issue and push it,but like i said,i dont think that there too bothered.
i only have one TM gun,my others are JG and all the other chinese clones.

i dont think that its right.....but in all honesty.....i dont care,if someone can offer me a product legally for a lot less of a price of the original then im happy.maybe thats wrong,but thats my honest opinion.

dwarfy.....are we allowed to say chinglish (to describe the manuals that come with the clones)?

[V.A.K]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

before i had to write an essay on the pros of third world sweatshops back in the day, i had the same opinion as you and many other people, however like most things in todays societies...its a lot more complicated than that, and in fact your conclusions on the negatives of sweatshops are very one sided, may i suggest a little bit of research just to gain a balance, im not telling you change your mind but just so you can see the whole picture

ok so every factory in china is the perfect working environment where they're all treated in a humane manner? also my dislike of china stems from there treatment of the dalai lama and occupation of tibet but that's another story and completely off topic.

[Barlow]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

Well having been called "chink" many times in the sense of slants i find the term offensive.

In terms of "buying into a clone industry and not supporting the original"... Everything is basically a copy. They're all copies of the original invention.

So you are genuinely offended when someone says the word chink? Do you find it offensive if someone calls a Japanese person a jap? It's offensive pointing out that a chinese person is chinese but not calling them chinese instead using a word that describes them as chinese? To most people the word chink is a descriptory slang term that in itself holds no malice but you like many other people have been socialised into believing it's use is strictly associated with offensive means. The same thing goes for the words spastic and retard, both are perfectly fine words but everyone associates them today with negative and offensive connotations. People are too quick to take offense because they feel it's the correct thing to do instead of actually understanding what is being said or being implied.

[seansamurai1]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

so the army r43 sopmod which copies all of tm's hard work is perfectly acceptable then. also you compare yourself to sweatshop workers. Do sweat shop workers get sick pay? do they have access to the nhs? do they have A minimum wage? Do they have access to a welfare system that helps them? at the end of the day they don't and you do so your argument is invalid.
Also for the record I try to abstain from buying anything made by china but it's hard to do so in the country we live in.

Its impossible more like, electronics goods all have components made in china (and thats all of them), most cars if not have components made in china, hell I cant think of anything other than vintage stuff that wont have a single chinese component.
Hope you dont wear Nike shoes, they are made in a sweatshop in Vietnam as are nearly all brand made cloths, and yes that includes Primark, they also share the wealth with China using their sweatshops.
The problem is is I bet you the people who work there are reasonably thankfull for a job and food everyday, its a different work ethic.
As for clones, I would say the Army R43 SOPMOD is acceptable as long as it doesnt run TM trades, people know its not a TM, if you want to think about all the hard work TM put into the design etc etc, then take a seat mate and have a gand at world coporate history, what do you think to Mercedes Benz, their design got reverse engineered at the dawn of motor vehicles, what about the Harrier, that got reverse engineered by the yanks, what about Kawasaki? All motorbikes to this day are cloned in some way or form from those early days, and I bet you no permission was sought then. What I dont agree with is something being sold as something when its not, its a knock off, fine example from a local retailer
http://www.zerooneairsoft.com/produc...oducts_id=6696
http://www.zerooneairsoft.com/produc...oducts_id=6679
Oops, both of those are not MTP, it is illegal for anyone other than an MOD backed company to make MTP, currently thats Cryye as they hold the rights and materials to multicam which MTP is based on and another company who makes the issue MTP attire.
If it doesnt have a UK NATO stock number (NSN) then its not MTP. Misadvertisement and a knock off. I have given fair warning to Z1 about this and its fallen on deaf ears, so Trading Standards are going to be brought in on it.

@Barlow, I know what you are saying, but its the same as bullying really, its down to the person on the receiving end to decide whats offensive and not offensive when said, some may find a racist version of Tigger offensive, but others will laugh it off. Yes I have done an E&D course.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

C'mon lads let's drop this whole racism issue before someone "rampages" in here and hands out bannings and we all know that is possible.

[Caveira]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

How many airsoft M4s are there out there?
How many of them will have been copied in one way or another from another manufacturer?
To give any sort of choice things have to be copied, if said M4s weren't copied then how many manufacturers would have M4s in their line up, or any other gun for that matter?

TM and the other main makers COULD bring up a legal issue and push it,but like i said,i dont think that there too bothered.
i only have one TM gun,my others are JG and all the other chinese clones.

There's what the "cheaper" end of the market do, such as JG etc, and that is cloning in as much as they take another company's product and they copy it. But, that's not the same as the Magpul example that started this debate. JG don't print TM logos on their boxes or guns.

I'm happy to buy these guns, even though they have been copied from other manufacturers work, as at least they have made the effort to develop their own brand identity and as such will normally be willing to spend a reasonable amount of semi-decent quality control. I'm also happy to buy products that have licensing arrangements with other companies. I don't like to buy fakes and that is what many of these things are. They're no less of a fake than a £50 Rolex, which may well tell the time for the next 10 years, but it's still a fake.

if someone can offer me a product legally for a lot less of a price of the original then im happy.maybe thats wrong,but thats my honest opinion.

But it's not legal is it. If UKBA decided to toughen up their checks, people could find themselves having their HK Magpul gear seized and destroyed, then getting fined the cost of the original item that it was a copy of (as that's the standardised EU penalty for importing fake goods). The genuine retailers don't need to make a complaint for customs to decide to do something, they just need to intercept a big order coming in and decide it's their pet priority of the month.

[tisane]

C'mon lads let's drop this whole racism issue before someone "rampages" in here and hands out bannings and we all know that is possible.

+1
I apologised because I felt what I said was wrong not because I was prompted to.

Now that's a point I can agree on.
As long as it isn't sporting the name (or variation thereof) of the original product then that's fine.

[riversphynxz]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

it's your budget and your choice.

i've playing airsoft for more than 10+ years and my very first rifle (m4 JG) which is 5 year old still firing like a charm, its the right gun for me with my budget that time. i agree that cloning is not good for the bussiness because it loosing profit for the original maker like tm (whom jg cloned) but if you only have £200 budget why buy something which cost more than your budget?

buying real steel doesn't make me a good skirmisher and vice versa, but if you feel good and content in what you have then so be it.

in the end, we just want to have a nice skirmish sunday with our mates.

[Hunter512]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

Yeah, clones are awful, I can't believe Classic Army built a metal bodied clone of the marui V2 gearbox series guns, an how about the way they cloned the TOP 249 and the PGC gearbox for it. Oh wait a minute you're talking about the new wave of clones, many of which are I suspect actually the OEM factories selling direct......

[seansamurai1]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

Like Davidson Custom slides, I suspect are made in the same factory as Airsoft Surgeon or the other really good make (for the life of me I cant remember the name, good grief I didnt realise there were two 6 o clocks in one day).