Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

[Olphy]

Hi guys,

Just seen this pop up for review on Youtube, it looks like Echo 1 (or whoever) have beaten G&G to the market with the first airsoft VSS Vintorez AEG. Looks pretty good though the 'Red Star' trademarks would be taken off straight away.

What do we all think?

Olphy.

[bob86]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

i already have one of these on order, just waiting for it to be sent to the shop along with my mg42 i've bought, although i think its the mg42 which is holding up the order.... i cant wait!

[duncanh]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

Hi I'm really looking forward to getting one of these. That YouTube video just made me want it even more!

[Kaz]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

There as been quite a surge of hate towards Echo 1 and their "Igor" gun thing. Let me just post these two images which sum it up pretty well:
http://s27.postimg.org/5l46jsglf/art.png
http://s22.postimg.org/cbf412x73/heuheuehueh.jpg
I haven't made them myself, but I believe they raise quite few important points.

[thebolshevik88]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

Some valid observations- but generally you could do that whole "over the top - i personally really ate Echo-1" comparison chart with all of your toys and be fairly disappointed that you bought a gun that fires 6mm bb's.

Besides- s&t internals aren't so bad and with a bit of work and a wooden stock- the Echo-1 could be a good gun.

[Olphy]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

I kind of agree, quite a lot of airsoft replicas aren't 1:1, even premium manufacturers are liable to miss the mark, I only found out the other day that the much lauded TM MP7 was 80% scale. I know that Russian weapons fans are a passionate bunch, but what makes this any different?

(BTW, I don't like it any more now that I've read that...)

[silasloki]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

Forget 1:1, it's a huge marketing fallacy!?! No one makes a true 1:1 rifle and even if they did, for most of us in the UK, how would you verify it was 1:1.

What annoys me with this crap, is that the whole elitism of airsoft over other "similar" hobbies, like paintball and laser tag, is generally based on the realism of the tools we use

What's even worse, these pieces of crap WILL still get you shot by an ARU even though the magwell is 5mm wider than on a real steel version.....go figure.

[PureSilver]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

Some valid observations- but generally you could do that whole "over the top - i personally really ate Echo-1" comparison chart with all of your toys and be fairly disappointed that you bought a gun that fires 6mm bb's.

Not really. If the gun I bought was so realistic it fired 9x39mm SP-5s instead of 6x6mm SP-hericals I don't think anyone would want to play airsoft with me. It's one thing for our guns to be bad actual firearms; that's necessary. But it's another thing altogether for our guns to be bad replica firearms. A RIF has about two jobs; one, fire BBs, and two, be a realistic imitation firearm. The Echo1 may shoot BBs but even as an ACM clone it's a pretty horrible replica. Imagine if your other Chinese knock-offs were that bad - your Rolex would be two inches thick and your DVDs would be made of oak. Even worse, Echo1 have the audacity to charge extra for lying to you about the origins of this ACM abortion. If you really must have the ACM VSS, why in the name of God would you pay $30 to have 'Echo1' painted on it rather than nothing at all? That $30 could be a substantial percentage of the difference - 25-33%, I should think - between the S&T and a gun worth buying.

Besides- s&t internals aren't so bad and with a bit of work and a wooden stock- the Echo-1 could be a good gun.

S&T is a contraction of S-&-HI-T; the internals may not be 'so bad' but they're a long way from 'good', and that's not even the half of it. Changing the internals out of a standard v.3 gearbox is easy, but in modifying the VSS' shape to make it fit the v.3 they've ruined everything that made it the VSS in the first place. The Echo1 is a crap replica of the VSS; even if it was the best airsoft weapon ever made - which I assure you it won't be - it would still be an ugly, misproportioned, plasticky market-stall fake of a gun. It is very easy to change out the internals of a gun but very difficult to change its externals, and on that basis the Igor is completely the wrong way around. For the time, money and effort it would take to make the Igor acceptable you could buy the LCT (so far the best option, given the G&G's offset barrel) and have a gun that was made and designed right in the first place.

Forget 1:1, it's a huge marketing fallacy!?! No one makes a true 1:1 rifle and even if they did, for most of us in the UK, how would you verify it was 1:1.

Systema's PTWs are 1:1, as are all of RealSword's AEGs, many WA-pattern and some WE-pattern GBBR AR-15s, not to mention most airsoft pistols. For sure most AEGs are slightly misproportioned, but those that are completely wrong are rightly criticised; I don't seem to recall many airsofters willing to say the TSI Tavor "could be a good gun" despite looking like a giant novelty inflatable of the original. You could verify 1:1 dimensions with a ruler, a photograph, or when the RS accessories you buy for it either fit or don't. Before you say "No-one makes RS accessories for the Vintorez!" they do indeed; try putting the correct PSO-1-1 on even the excruciatingly expensive NPO-AEG replica and you'll discover that it doesn't fit at all, let alone properly. Imagine what it would look like on the Igor.

If the Igor was the only Vintorez on the market this year, this would be a crap gun but the only alternative to the exorbitantly-priced NPO-AEG. But it isn't; with the G&G GSS due for release in 2014 with innovative takedown features, the correct furniture and mostly steel construction I'd take one over the Igor any day, stupid offset barrel or not. With the LCT AS VAL (and VSS Vintorez) due out in 2014 too you'd have to be absolutely mad to buy the Hunchback of Tula Arms Plant instead.

[Olphy]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

So we're agreed, this gun sucks?

[Hunter512]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

erm basically yup, been waiting for a VSS for a long time, (yes Zeta Labs I AM LOOKING AT YOU) but this ain't anywhere near my must buy list.

[thebolshevik88]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

Not really. If the gun I bought was so realistic it fired 9x39mm SP-5s instead of 6x6mm SP-hericals I don't think anyone would want to play airsoft with me. It's one thing for our guns to be bad actual firearms; that's necessary. But it's another thing altogether for our guns to be bad replica firearms. A RIF has about two jobs; one, fire BBs, and two, be a realistic imitation firearm. The Echo1 may shoot BBs but even as an ACM clone it's a pretty horrible replica. Imagine if your other Chinese knock-offs were that bad - your Rolex would be two inches thick and your DVDs would be made of oak. Even worse, Echo1 have the audacity to charge extra for lying to you about the origins of this ACM abortion. If you really must have the ACM VSS, why in the name of God would you pay $30 to have 'Echo1' painted on it rather than nothing at all? That $30 could be a substantial percentage of the difference - 25-33%, I should think - between the S&T and a gun worth buying.



S&T is a contraction of S-&-HI-T; the internals may not be 'so bad' but they're a long way from 'good', and that's not even the half of it. Changing the internals out of a standard v.3 gearbox is easy, but in modifying the VSS' shape to make it fit the v.3 they've ruined everything that made it the VSS in the first place. The Echo1 is a crap replica of the VSS; even if it was the best airsoft weapon ever made - which I assure you it won't be - it would still be an ugly, misproportioned, plasticky market-stall fake of a gun. It is very easy to change out the internals of a gun but very difficult to change its externals, and on that basis the Igor is completely the wrong way around. For the time, money and effort it would take to make the Igor acceptable you could buy the LCT (so far the best option, given the G&G's offset barrel) and have a gun that was made and designed right in the first place.



Systema's PTWs are 1:1, as are all of RealSword's AEGs, many WA-pattern and some WE-pattern GBBR AR-15s, not to mention most airsoft pistols. For sure most AEGs are slightly misproportioned, but those that are completely wrong are rightly criticised; I don't seem to recall many airsofters willing to say the TSI Tavor "could be a good gun" despite looking like a giant novelty inflatable of the original. You could verify 1:1 dimensions with a ruler, a photograph, or when the RS accessories you buy for it either fit or don't. Before you say "No-one makes RS accessories for the Vintorez!" they do indeed; try putting the correct PSO-1-1 on even the excruciatingly expensive NPO-AEG replica and you'll discover that it doesn't fit at all, let alone properly. Imagine what it would look like on the Igor.

If the Igor was the only Vintorez on the market this year, this would be a crap gun but the only alternative to the exorbitantly-priced NPO-AEG. But it isn't; with the G&G GSS due for release in 2014 with innovative takedown features, the correct furniture and mostly steel construction I'd take one over the Igor any day, stupid offset barrel or not. With the LCT AS VAL (and VSS Vintorez) due out in 2014 too you'd have to be absolutely mad to buy the Hunchback of Tula Arms Plant instead.

Well we can't all be bourgeois and afford Inokatsu's, Systema's and TM's Sir Puresilver o giver of judgement. By the way my S & H I T svd and JG stuff is excellent thanks.

I am 25 and i play with toy guns.

[CacklingHawk]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

Well we can't all be bourgeois and afford Inokatsu's, Systema's and TM's Sir Puresilver o giver of judgement. By the way my S & H I T svd and JG stuff is excellent thanks.

I wanna chime in here real quick as an avid defender of ACM gear (anyone who looks at my post history can see this). ACM stuff--JG being my personal favorite--fulfills a particular purpose at a particular price point, which is functionality and reliability at the cost of build quality and out of the box performance.

If you want a workhorse gun to play airsoft with, you'd probably buy ACM guns and not worry about trademarks, dimensions, or whatever. If it looks like an AK it's fine. But rare guns, relatively unknown guns, the guns that only real firearm buffs enjoy, the shell-ejecting Mauser or Stoner 63 or M16VN...build accuracy matters because the primary customer of those guns are not going to be just regular airsofters.

The VSS is a particularly esoteric weapon, hardly famous in the caliber of M4s, AKs, even G3s or SVDs. It is a niche within a niche. The people who are likely to shell out money for a VSS replica is going to care about a wooden stock and dimensional similarities right out of the box.

Secondly, Echo1's advertising rubbed me the wrong way regarding its internals. Even if it was top of the line, the fact that they offered no details on a bunch of parts that don't even look very good (you call a bearingless plastic spring guide pre-upgraded?) smacks of deceptive marketing. Maybe I'd let this slide if they were selling slap-chops but they are a hobbyist company selling to hobbyists; this sort of scrutiny is both deserved and necessary.

I've yet to shoot the Igor so I have no idea how good it actually performs as an airsoft gun, out of the box. But I am reasonably sure that shooting abillities is not the primary selling point of a VSS. In this regard, criticizing the inaccuracy of the build is absolutely valid.

[dave38x]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

Just an update on the Igor - I've just seen a friend posting a video about the Echo1/King Arms Igor - anyone know if king arms have just got S&T to do internals for them?

[Stealthkiller]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

[QUOTE=silasloki;1262714]Forget 1:1, it's a huge marketing fallacy!?! No one makes a true 1:1 rifle and even if they did, for most of us in the UK, how would you verify it was 1:

Real sword type 97 / 97 b , dragunov , all identical size and weight to the real steel guns they replicate . Even use the same materials for their externals .
56/56/1 real steel externals only minor difference is pistol grip on these .ak replicas .

[PureSilver]

Re: Echo1 Red Star Igor (VSS Vintorez AEG)

Just an update on the Igor - I've just seen a friend posting a video about the Echo1/King Arms Igor - anyone know if king arms have just got S&T to do internals for them?

The King Arms is a completely different gun, insofar as I know. So far, confirmed models are, in ascending order of attractiveness:

1. S&T VSS (Rebranded as Echo1 Igor)
2. King Arms VSS
3. G&G GSS
4. LCT AS VAL