IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

[JCheeseright]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

As long as the site insurance covers it, and everyone consents to playing I don't see how this effects anyone. It's not about the look, we have the shitty ukara for that. So robbing a bank with a 500fps gun or a 280fps gun makes no difference. I just don't see the reasoning behind it and that's what makes it dangerous. Does anyone know his actual reasoning? I'd happily sign an extra piece of paper to say I'm happy to be shot by a gun over 1j if it came to it.

The problem is that no insurance company in the world will insure a site to allow people to shoot at each other with SECTION 5 FIREARMS because anyone owning a section 5 firearm should be in jail for a minimum of 5 years.

[Comicbook Hero]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

I think you may all be missing the point around enforcement.

Do we honestly believe that, if we loose the amendment, shooting enthusiasts from around the country who currently have to meet stringent legal requirements to own their firearms, are going to sit back and watch quietly as the police ignore any new rulings and allow us to get away with not adhereing to it. Really?

They will be vocal in demanding that the law be enforced equally against us.

And, not wishing to call anyone naïve but Policing strategies and targets aren't set for what is best for the country. Historically they are set to appease those that shout the loudest or as a knee jerk to sudden community impact issues.

If the ammendment isn't agreed and the Lord gets his way I can guarantee that the GTA members, Section 1 and Shotgun certificate holders will all be saying, "How come they are getting away with it?" Backed by the shooting press and various other band wagon jumping do gooders the calls will gather weight and be heard. Then, before you know it, spot visits to sites could be common.

Just because a law seems unenforceable doesn't mean it won't be passed. And who would want to be that 1st test case at court?

CBH

[Fizzy]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

Just because a law seems unenforceable doesn't mean it won't be passed. And who would want to be that 1st test case at court?

CBH

Indeed, the VCRA is a perfect example.

[MrMcG]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

So i am clear,

The vote is on the 14th.

Say Mr Lord gets his way how long before it all becomes enforceable ?

when is the new bill due to come in ?

[Fizzy]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

How long is a piece of string?

[MrMcG]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

How long is a piece of string?

Suspected as much

[W0lf]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

All retailers and players would have to be given a reasonable amount of time to modify the guns. It's not like they can decide to fuck us over and go to zero one the next day to check potentially thousands of illegal guns

[Westie]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

So i am clear,

The vote is on the 14th.

Say Mr Lord gets his way how long before it all becomes enforceable ?

when is the new bill due to come in ?

Before the end of the year, but I'd suspect this'd be to link up with the Scottish air weapons act.

[colinjallen]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

Sometimes I despair!

[roryrocker13]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

As stupid and unenforceable as this sounds, once a gun has been declared a section 5 even if you downgrade it the authorities still class it as a section 5.
If it gets to that point I think I am just going to throw in the towel and move to france. I heard airsoft is great there

[Chewybacka]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

Great thread, I have just finished drafting my sensible letter, could someone give me His majesty Lord shrubberry email, Guess it cannot hurt to email him aswell

[SRB]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

No problem pm me, do you want me to give it a cursory proof read

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Supa_T]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

And, not wishing to call anyone naive but Policing strategies and targets aren't set for what is best for the country. Historically they are set to appease those that shout the loudest or as a knee jerk to sudden community impact issues.

This is always tempered by ever-dwindling police resources. Perfect case in point: earlier this year it became illegal to smoke in a car with under-18s present. It got plenty of media coverage, certainly where I live, and yet you can count on 1 hand the number of people who have paid fixed penalties for it. You can't even get burglars locked up these days and yet we have someone apparently getting life in prison for owning an airsoft gun 0.04j over the legal limit? As I said: over-reaction.

Whilst I agree that we should all be lobbying, sensibly and rationally, I doubt there will be much support from police forces given that firearms licensing already costs forces money each year. It might actually be worth sounding out your local Police and Crime Commissioners as well, see if any of them fancy having to divert yet more resources towards this issue. Having them lobby their MPs to vote against the change couldn't hurt.

[Shizbazki]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

Hhmmm has anyone actually read the legislation and the bill at length to understand it? as knowledge is power?

TL:DR – I think as Airsofters we are well covered, so chill the f**k out! The new Bill proposed for the 14-09-16 might be better for Airsoft really, hint, hint, the bill also proposes a new section to the Firearms Act 1968, S.57A
But read on to learn more of what I mean?

So upon seeing the news on several forum sites about the up and coming Policing and Crime Bill due to be talked over in the House of Lords on 14-09-16 its seemed that the sport of airsoft is to be doomed if you take the information from UKAPU, UKARA et al, however as some have pointed out that Lord Shrewsbury is doing this for political reasons, one cannot for one second think that maybe UKAPU might have their own political agendas other than being the saving grace of Airsoft it wants to be seen as.
UKAPU have produced a nice poster where they have a step by step, “What you can do to help”
1. Write an angry letter to a Lord on their “LORDS HIT LIST”;
2. That the GTA will be the only ones to benefit, boycott all GTA members who support the bill and
3. JOIN UKAPU.
Link to the reference above:
http://www.ukapu.org.uk/saveairsoft/
Point 1 with the HIT LIST sounded a bit unprofessional to me and started my scepticism, Point 2 GTA boycott fine I agree with that, you don’t shop at a place that is against your beliefs, but point 3 “JOIN UKAPU” got me thinking, is this more for UKAPUs own political reasons? I noticed that to be a UKAPU Silver or Gold member they want your money (£5 for silver, £10 for gold), Bronze is free for a year but after that you have to upgrade up.
On the poster UKAPU made they mention the Airsoft Trade Body, no internet footprint, all Google searches lead back to UKAPU, UKARA is also on the poster but their website make no mention of the new bill, albeit their website is hardly the best.

I have always learned to be quite sceptical and tend to look to the actual paperwork, for those of you that don’t know, Acts and Bills can be written in a very archaic manner that’s basically means you need to break it down to understand it.
So with that I decided to go to the House of Lords website and look up the Policing and Crime Bill proposal as well as refer to the original Firearms Act 1968 specifically S57 (and 57A which doesn’t exist, yet! But if this Bill passes it will)

So lets start with the crux of the matter, the Firearms Act 1968, S.57 (1):
In this Act, the expression “firearm” means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes—
(a) any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not; and
(b ) any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and
(c ) any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon; and so much of section 1 of this Act as excludes any description of firearm from the category of firearms to which that section applies shall be construed as also excluding component parts of, and accessories to, firearms of that description.
They want to change the wording of Firearms Act 1968, S.57 (1), note that the new additional change is highlighted in bold to this:
In this Act, the expression “firearm” means—
(a) a lethal barrelled weapon (see subsection (1B));
(b ) a prohibited weapon;
(c ) a relevant component part in relation to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon (see subsection (1D));
(d) an accessory to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon where the accessory is designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon.

You will notice that at the end of S.57 (1) (a) has the “see subsection (1B))”
Subsection 1B states:
“(1B) In subsection (1)(a), “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled
weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile,
with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon,
can be discharged.”

And this is where we’re getting our knickers in a twist, before it used to state that a “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile. This could be anything from a shotgun to a pipe launching out a potato etc. Now it has the addition of “with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged.” So adds a specific muzzle velocity too.
So reading it like this means it can be construed that any barrelled weapon which discharges a shot etc with more than 1 joule of energy will be made illegal overnight and that all airsofters up and down the UK should be banged up, so far UKAPU have been correct and have used this to try and gain more members to sign up in apparently the “GOOD FIGHT”.
BUT!!!!
If you were to go to the Firearms Act 1968 and check through the Act as it currently stands, it goes through all its sections numerically occasionally adding the odd “A”, “B”, “C” to certain sections, refer to Section 30 of the Firearms Act 1968 which has Sections 30A, 30B, 30C and 30D.
Section 57 goes straight to Section 58 as expected, however the new Bill proposed for the 14-09-16 has a line stating:
“Subsection (1) is subject to section 57A (exception for airsoft guns).”

Basically, the new Bill wants to add a part specifically for us, S.57A which (does not yet exist) is a whole new proposed section to the Firearms Act 1968 which states:
57A Exception for airsoft guns
(1) An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act.
(2) An “airsoft gun” is a barrelled weapon of any description from which only a small plastic missile, with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that does not exceed the permitted level, can be discharged.
(3) “Small plastic missile” means a missile that—
(a) is made wholly or partly from plastics, and
(b ) does not exceed 6 millimetres in diameter.
(4) The permitted kinetic energy level is—
(a) in the case of a weapon which is designed or adapted so that two or more missiles can be discharged successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;
(b ) in any other case, 2.5 joules.”

This above means that either UKAPU have only read a small part of the new bill and stopped reading or they want more members, Section 57 is so specific to Airsoft guns NOT being regarded as firearms for this Act is unreal, in fact the way S.57A, Paragraph 4, line b - is written technically means that Full Autos can go up to 1.3J or about 372FPS using .20g BBs, Semi Auto DMRs and Bolt Actions can legally go up to 515FPS on .20g BBs. This is why we should use joules instead of FPS and weights to measure our guns.

This means that if this Bill passes, nothing for Airsofters will change, I think the Airsoft community have misinterpreted Air Weapons such as Air Rifles and Pistols with Airsoft Guns. Frankly the Bill has included S.57A to try and bring the Firearms Act 1968 up to date to formally recognise Airsoft Guns under the Act but clarifies that Airsoft Guns are NOT firearms.
For those of you fearing that Police would come to Airsosft Sites and Chrono everyone en masse, I would say don’t woryy, Police have better things to do and would risk alienating Airsoft Players, of which a sizeable portion are Police Officers themselves.
References:
1.
Firearms Act 1968
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57
Accessed 03-09-16

2.
Policing and Crime Bill 2015-16 to 2016-17, HL Bill 55 dated 14-06-16, Las accessed on 03-09-16
http://www.publications.parliament.u...0055/17055.pdf
Specifically referring to Page 137, Part 6 – Firearms, Paragraph 111 Firearms Act 1968: meaning of “firearm” etc

[minimi123246]

Re: IMPORTANT correspondence with MP'S and Lord's

Hhmmm has anyone actually read the legislation and the bill at length to understand it? as knowledge is power?

TL:DR – I think as Airsofters we are well covered, so chill the f**k out! The new Bill proposed for the 14-09-16 might be better for Airsoft really, hint, hint, the bill also proposes a new section to the Firearms Act 1968, S.57A
But read on to learn more of what I mean?

So upon seeing the news on several forum sites about the up and coming Policing and Crime Bill due to be talked over in the House of Lords on 14-09-16 its seemed that the sport of airsoft is to be doomed if you take the information from UKAPU, UKARA et al, however as some have pointed out that Lord Shrewsbury is doing this for political reasons, one cannot for one second think that maybe UKAPU might have their own political agendas other than being the saving grace of Airsoft it wants to be seen as.
UKAPU have produced a nice poster where they have a step by step, “What you can do to help”
1. Write an angry letter to a Lord on their “LORDS HIT LIST”;
2. That the GTA will be the only ones to benefit, boycott all GTA members who support the bill and
3. JOIN UKAPU.
Link to the reference above:
http://www.ukapu.org.uk/saveairsoft/
Point 1 with the HIT LIST sounded a bit unprofessional to me and started my scepticism, Point 2 GTA boycott fine I agree with that, you don’t shop at a place that is against your beliefs, but point 3 “JOIN UKAPU” got me thinking, is this more for UKAPUs own political reasons? I noticed that to be a UKAPU Silver or Gold member they want your money (£5 for silver, £10 for gold), Bronze is free for a year but after that you have to upgrade up.
On the poster UKAPU made they mention the Airsoft Trade Body, no internet footprint, all Google searches lead back to UKAPU, UKARA is also on the poster but their website make no mention of the new bill, albeit their website is hardly the best.

I have always learned to be quite sceptical and tend to look to the actual paperwork, for those of you that don’t know, Acts and Bills can be written in a very archaic manner that’s basically means you need to break it down to understand it.
So with that I decided to go to the House of Lords website and look up the Policing and Crime Bill proposal as well as refer to the original Firearms Act 1968 specifically S57 (and 57A which doesn’t exist, yet! But if this Bill passes it will)

So lets start with the crux of the matter, the Firearms Act 1968, S.57 (1):
In this Act, the expression “firearm” means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes—
(a) any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not; and
(b ) any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and
(c ) any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon; and so much of section 1 of this Act as excludes any description of firearm from the category of firearms to which that section applies shall be construed as also excluding component parts of, and accessories to, firearms of that description.
They want to change the wording of Firearms Act 1968, S.57 (1), note that the new additional change is highlighted in bold to this:
In this Act, the expression “firearm” means—
(a) a lethal barrelled weapon (see subsection (1B));
(b ) a prohibited weapon;
(c ) a relevant component part in relation to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon (see subsection (1D));
(d) an accessory to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon where the accessory is designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon.

You will notice that at the end of S.57 (1) (a) has the “see subsection (1B))”
Subsection 1B states:
“(1B) In subsection (1)(a), “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled
weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile,
with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon,
can be discharged.”

And this is where we’re getting our knickers in a twist, before it used to state that a “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile. This could be anything from a shotgun to a pipe launching out a potato etc. Now it has the addition of “with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged.” So adds a specific muzzle velocity too.
So reading it like this means it can be construed that any barrelled weapon which discharges a shot etc with more than 1 joule of energy will be made illegal overnight and that all airsofters up and down the UK should be banged up, so far UKAPU have been correct and have used this to try and gain more members to sign up in apparently the “GOOD FIGHT”.
BUT!!!!
If you were to go to the Firearms Act 1968 and check through the Act as it currently stands, it goes through all its sections numerically occasionally adding the odd “A”, “B”, “C” to certain sections, refer to Section 30 of the Firearms Act 1968 which has Sections 30A, 30B, 30C and 30D.
Section 57 goes straight to Section 58 as expected, however the new Bill proposed for the 14-09-16 has a line stating:
“Subsection (1) is subject to section 57A (exception for airsoft guns).”

Basically, the new Bill wants to add a part specifically for us, S.57A which (does not yet exist) is a whole new proposed section to the Firearms Act 1968 which states:
57A Exception for airsoft guns
(1) An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act.
(2) An “airsoft gun” is a barrelled weapon of any description from which only a small plastic missile, with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that does not exceed the permitted level, can be discharged.
(3) “Small plastic missile” means a missile that—
(a) is made wholly or partly from plastics, and
(b ) does not exceed 6 millimetres in diameter.
(4) The permitted kinetic energy level is—
(a) in the case of a weapon which is designed or adapted so that two or more missiles can be discharged successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;
(b ) in any other case, 2.5 joules.”

This above means that either UKAPU have only read a small part of the new bill and stopped reading or they want more members, Section 57 is so specific to Airsoft guns NOT being regarded as firearms for this Act is unreal, in fact the way S.57A, Paragraph 4, line b - is written technically means that Full Autos can go up to 1.3J or about 372FPS using .20g BBs, Semi Auto DMRs and Bolt Actions can legally go up to 515FPS on .20g BBs. This is why we should use joules instead of FPS and weights to measure our guns.

This means that if this Bill passes, nothing for Airsofters will change, I think the Airsoft community have misinterpreted Air Weapons such as Air Rifles and Pistols with Airsoft Guns. Frankly the Bill has included S.57A to try and bring the Firearms Act 1968 up to date to formally recognise Airsoft Guns under the Act but clarifies that Airsoft Guns are NOT firearms.
For those of you fearing that Police would come to Airsosft Sites and Chrono everyone en masse, I would say don’t woryy, Police have better things to do and would risk alienating Airsoft Players, of which a sizeable portion are Police Officers themselves.
References:
1.
Firearms Act 1968
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57
Accessed 03-09-16

2.
Policing and Crime Bill 2015-16 to 2016-17, HL Bill 55 dated 14-06-16, Las accessed on 03-09-16
http://www.publications.parliament.u...0055/17055.pdf
Specifically referring to Page 137, Part 6 – Firearms, Paragraph 111 Firearms Act 1968: meaning of “firearm” etc

Shrewsbury is submitting that this exemption for airsoft should be removed...so he is actually screwing us over