ICS M4A1 Gearbox & Motor Upgrade - High Torque - Help Required

[Chaos Actual]

Hi, am currently looking to upgrade the internals on my ICS M4, the result I am looking for is as short a time as possible between when I pull the trigger and when the piston fires the BB. I also would like the system to fire a little quieter. The current setup is as follows:

• Standard lower gearset
• Upgraded piston with metal teeth and ported metal pistonhead
• Metal spring-guide
• TM Hop Rubber
• Prometheus 6.03 TB barrel
• Extreme-Fire Cheetah 2N mosfet
• G&P M120 motor

I am looking to replace the gearset with a helical type and also replace the motor with a high torque type as it doesnt seem to work well with the active braking on my mosfet.

I have seen there are a lot of different manufacturers out there, some I have heard of (systema, dytac, lonex etc) and some I haven't.
The helical gearset I saw at first was made by SHS who I saw were chinese (had bad experiences with chinese metal parts in the past so usually avoid), their helical gearset (gears only) runs at about £20 however WGC shop have quite a few different manufacturers going up to around £95 a set and having different applications ie ultra torque/ high speed/ standard etc. Are SHS any good or are they to be avoided as per past experiences?

Question is which is the best manufacturer to go for and which type of gearset is best for purpose? I've seen a few people on forums saying they have the systema helical sets in their gearboxes but is it the case that you are paying more for the systema brand name where cheaper manufacturers will do the same job?
Also is it required that the standard shimms etc in my current setup would need to be upgraded and so bought as part of a set?

The other thing that I need is a new motor, apparently, as I have been told the high-torque ones have better bushings and so would not only provide a faster response from trigger-pull to round fired, but would also work better under the mosfets active braking than the high-speed M120 I have at the moment. Could anyone suggest a decent high-torque motor without breaking the bank and also if there are any manufacturers it would be best to avoid?

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Crude Skinny B]

Re: ICS M4A1 Gearbox & Motor Upgrade - High Torque - Help Required

13:1 ratio gears, i like shs, i run them at 45 rps with a HT motor, use them in all my guns, if you want the best go for Siegetek but do go for around £100

high torque motor, i like shs, run them in all my guns, element are also another i like, best would be the lonex range of motor, i believe it to be the A2 motor which you would want in your setup.

shim set, i like shs, lonex also do a precision shim set which is very nice

polycarbonate piston head, i like element, nice and lightweight just stick to polycarbonate one and you will be fine

And all the mods:
swiss cheesing - lightning the piston
Aoe correction via sorbo pads - makes the piston last longer
Short stroking - not necessary for a 7.4 lipo but if you want to go higher i would suggest short stoking (removing teeth from both piston rack and sector gear)
well shimmed gearbox - shimmed to pinion gear on the motor first to get optimum efficiency
polished cylinder - smoother piston movement, and better air seal
compression test and fixes, maximum fps you can get out of you spring and consistent shooting.

from a setup like that i would usally get around 22-25 rps on a 7.4

[Chaos Actual]

Re: ICS M4A1 Gearbox & Motor Upgrade - High Torque - Help Required

Hi, thanks for the reply. I have gone by your advice and ordered a set of torque-up SHS helical gears and I am going to look at a set of precision shims as well. I have also looked at replacement bearings as well (have seen the ICS lower takes a 6mm bearing - can you confirm this?) as when I last put my standard gearset back in there was a tiny amount of latteral movement. I have seen an SHS set and may go for these unless there are any better suggestions?

Re the high-torque motor: I have seen a few 2nd hand on here by manfacturers:

Tokyo marui
SRC
G&G
JBU
ICS infinite

Which of these would you say is best?

Thanks

[whiteman]

Re: ICS M4A1 Gearbox & Motor Upgrade - High Torque - Help Required

ICS tubro 3000 is awsome
if you want to invest some money in motor, buy motor which contains neodyn magnet

[Crude Skinny B]

Re: ICS M4A1 Gearbox & Motor Upgrade - High Torque - Help Required

if you want the "short a time as possible between when I pull the trigger and when the piston fires the BB. I also would like the system to fire a little quieter" torque-up SHS helical gears may not be the best option as the ratio is quite high unless you want anything over 420 fps, they are also a little harder to shim.

If you are using this gear set i would choose a high speed motor as you would see little difference with a HT motor which is more for the lower ratio gearsets (13:1-16:1) as it is harder to pull the spring back creating the need for a HT motor, a speed motor would work but takes time to get up to its full potential speed therefore the trigger response on semi is not as good as a HT motor.

For bearings i am unaware of the size that the ics use, a quick google search should help you though.

Motor wise as whiteman has said one with Neodymium magnets in it, i have never used any of those motor you have pointed out but if i were to go for a decent speed motor i would go for element or shs, or the g&p m120 motor is a good cheap substitute, just find on with Neodymium magnets in it and you will be fine.

[Chaos Actual]

Re: ICS M4A1 Gearbox & Motor Upgrade - High Torque - Help Required

I've already ordered the SHS high torque helicals so it would be a waste not to use them .
I also found the bearings are 6mm for the ICS, although through doing research I have found bushings are more reliable in the long run as the bearings have been known to fail quicker - as such I have ordered a set of 6mm stainless steel bushings to go with my new gears.

Your suggestion of motor is quite fortunate though as I currently have a G&P M120 in the gun at the moment, I looked for some Neodymium motors as you suggested and have seen some made by the likes of SHS and JG at the low end of the price range as well as some made by systema and terminiusX at the high end, I think one place said the ICS turbo 3000 uses neodymium magnets which is strange as that's what I pulled out of my M4 originally to be replaced with my G&P - when I pulled it out the inside of the handgrip was caked in a carbon-like substance (maybe its worth stripping the motor down and cleaning it out then re-trying it).

Something that concerned me a little is when you said its a little trickier to shim the helical gears at the ratio I have them - what is the best way to do this as the last thing I want to do is to do it wrong and end up damaging my gearbox? I haven't really had much experience with shimming I have to admit - is this something reasonably easy to do or is there a bit of an art to it?

[Crude Skinny B]

Re: ICS M4A1 Gearbox & Motor Upgrade - High Torque - Help Required

i have only ever shimmed helical gears once and that was some time ago, basically you shim them the same way as you would normally but as the teeth are slanted they will push each gear up. this means that there needs to be absolutely no vertical up and down movements (same as normal gears really) as then the surfaces of the gears will touch. however you want to get the gears as close together to get maximum surface contact between teeth. You will also want to make sure that the bushings you are going to use are secured in the gearbox well so that they do not spin or fall out, super glue or thread lock can be used to stop this just make sure that they are seated properly before doing this, i find the best way is to add a few too many shims to the gear that corresponds with the bushing then close the gearbox with the gear inside then push down evenly, this will ensure the bushings are inline and seated properly, obviously you add super glue or an alternative to the available glueing surface.

i don't believe that the ics 3000 uses neo magnets as with the g&p m120, a neo magnet motor will give the best performance. as for the carbon like substance, most likely needs new brushes and a good clean.