Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

[psirus101]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

Yeah bro, ANARCHY ANARCHY.....

I always thought that junior membership lark was a bit wiffy.

[Caveira]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

I'm personally totally against the xsite junior membership purchase scheme and Tim is aware of this from the PMs we've exchanged.

I do agree with his view on manufacturing/converting though and in the past that has been the general consensus here too.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

Copied from Hunters post in the above thread I linked:

Just an update for those interested, latest from UKARA on the subject o under 18 RIF manufacture;

This affair is being looked into already.
As far as UKARA is concerned unless the Home Office change their mind under 18s cannot manufacture or purchase RiFs.

Best Regards

UKARA Admin

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: UKARA Contact: Under 18 airsofters
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 21:47:15 +0000
From: XXXxXXXX <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>


*
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 21:02:32 +0000
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: UKARA Contact: Under 18 airsofters

On 25/12/11 18:36, [email protected] wrote:
The following email was submitted from the UKARA contact form:

Name: XXXXXXXXXX
Email: [email protected]

Message:
Is it legal for under 18 airsofter\'s who have been gifted a 2 tone IF to respray it black thus manufacturing a RIF?

IP: 86.15.53.79


No


So I assume it would interest you to know that the Xsite do a junior (under 18) memebership that they feel gives under 18 skirmishers the right to manufacture a RIF?
*
http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/showthrea...sent-items*see the posts by "johnny lovegrove" in this otherwise unrelated thread.
*
*

[Caveira]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

SB, I did read that mate, but thanks for posting it as it saves people time in going backwards a forwards.

My simple question is this: What right do UKARA believe they have to decide what the law is? According to them, you must play a minimum of 3 games etc etc etc to legally buy a RIF, yet this isn't a requirement anywhere in the legislation, it's simply the definition they decided to apply to protect their members by playing on the safe side where the definition of a regular player (which, IIRC isn't actually a requirement in itself in the legislation) is concerned.

They make up the rules and then tell everyone that they are the only ones who know what is right and what is wrong.

[magslap]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

Firstly, UKARA have got 100% f-all to do with this. They are there to protect the interests of the retailers and not that of the players. It is in their members interests to suggest that this is illegal.

Secondly, the home office can say what they want but at the end of the day all they can do is issue guidance on what they believe the law to mean. The courts are the ones who interpret the legislation and unless someone can find a reference to under-18s in relation to anything other than purchasing I'll continue to hold my position until either a) parliament amends the regulations or b) a judge sets precedent saying otherwise.

Finally, I think the thread that you might be refering to was the one about the xsite under-18 sales scheme. That was about adults purchasing on behalf of under-18 players and nothing to do with modification. If that's not the thread the appologies.

i was only only stating what thread id seen it in,i wasnt the one emailing.
and it was also another thread were jl opened a paypal account.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

SB, I did read that mate, but thanks for posting it as it saves people time in going backwards a forwards.

My simple question is this: What right do UKARA believe they have to decide what the law is? According to them, you must play a minimum of 3 games etc etc etc to legally buy a RIF, yet this isn't a requirement anywhere in the legislation, it's simply the definition they decided to apply to protect their members by playing on the safe side where the definition of a regular player (which, IIRC isn't actually a requirement in itself in the legislation) is concerned.

They make up the rules and then tell everyone that they are the only ones who know what is right and what is wrong.

Aye was just posting so other's can see. It makes little difference what legislation say's really people who buy two tones will if they chose to paint them black any way!

[Christo]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

So to make it clear, the Law says you need a defence and UKARA makes it easier to have a defence?

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

Nope UKARA doesn't make it easier to have a defense, just purchase RIFs from certain stores that don't accept site membership. Your site membership is your defense.

[Christo]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

Nope UKARA doesn't make it easier to have a defense, just purchase RIFs from certain stores that don't accept site membership. Your site membership is your defense.

It makes it easier to use your defence, worded poorly but you get the jist of things...

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

Ah I get ya now aye it does.

[Caveira]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

You get the defence by playing.

Site membership gives you the easiest proof of this defence.

UKARA makes it easy to use this membership.

[Christo]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

You get the defence by playing.

Site membership gives you the easiest proof of this defence.

UKARA makes it easy to use this membership.

Helpful as ever, cheers.

[seansamurai1]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

SB, I did read that mate, but thanks for posting it as it saves people time in going backwards a forwards.

My simple question is this: What right do UKARA believe they have to decide what the law is? According to them, you must play a minimum of 3 games etc etc etc to legally buy a RIF, yet this isn't a requirement anywhere in the legislation, it's simply the definition they decided to apply to protect their members by playing on the safe side where the definition of a regular player (which, IIRC isn't actually a requirement in itself in the legislation) is concerned.

They make up the rules and then tell everyone that they are the only ones who know what is right and what is wrong.

It was dictated by the home office that as part of VCRA they wanted something doing, a group of retailers got together and set the UKARA up to which the home office were happy.
UKARA have no legal powers at all, but the home office does.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

The VCRA includes restriction on the manufacture, modification and selling of IF's and RIF's

Copied from the VCRA:

36Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms(1)A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a)he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;
(b)he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;
(c)he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or
(d)he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36

Simple answer, NO you cannot spray a 2 tone!

But you missed out the whole of the UKSI that gives airsoft players a defence. A defence which is not age-dependent, and covers the WHOLE of section 36 of the VCRA.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

Copied from Hunters post in the above thread I linked:

Just an update for those interested, latest from UKARA on the subject o under 18 RIF manufacture;

This affair is being looked into already.
As far as UKARA is concerned unless the Home Office change their mind under 18s cannot manufacture or purchase RiFs.

Best Regards

UKARA Admin

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: UKARA Contact: Under 18 airsofters
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 21:47:15 +0000
From: XXXxXXXX <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>


*
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 21:02:32 +0000
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: UKARA Contact: Under 18 airsofters

On 25/12/11 18:36, [email protected] wrote:
The following email was submitted from the UKARA contact form:

Name: XXXXXXXXXX
Email: [email protected]

Message:
Is it legal for under 18 airsofter\'s who have been gifted a 2 tone IF to respray it black thus manufacturing a RIF?

IP: 86.15.53.79


No


So I assume it would interest you to know that the Xsite do a junior (under 18) memebership that they feel gives under 18 skirmishers the right to manufacture a RIF?
*
http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/showthrea...sent-items*see the posts by "johnny lovegrove" in this otherwise unrelated thread.
*
*

FAIL!
Spraying a 2-tone is NOT manufacturing under Section 36(1)(a), it's modifying an IF to become a RIF under Section 36(1)(b).
And the fact they didn't pick up on that kind of gives you an idea about the quality of the advice...

As others have said, no matter what the Home Office advice says, the VCRA only limits age in regards to the buyer of the IF/RIF.

[Caveira]

Re: Does a membership at a site count as a valid defense?

It was dictated by the home office that as part of VCRA they wanted something doing, a group of retailers got together and set the UKARA up to which the home office were happy.
UKARA have no legal powers at all, but the home office does.

What I'm saying is that the home office simply stated that the ABA were going to put in place a scheme that sounded like the one that UKARA implemented. It isn't in any of the acts or regulations, only the statement in the implementation notes about the ABA scheme. As we all know, the ABA never got off the ground and UKARA picked up the ball and ran with it. But the implementation notes don't say that this is the requirement, they simply give the example of the ABA scheme as what might be put into place.

The exact wording is:

For airsoft skirmishing, the Association of British Airsoft is
putting in place arrangements to allow retailers to check that individual
purchasers are members of a genuine skirmishing club or site. The key
elements of these arrangements are:

new players must play at least 3 times in the 2 months before being
offered membership;

membership cards with a photograph and recognised format will be
issued for production to retailers;

a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a
purchaser’s details; and

a member’s entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12
months.

Basically, there is no legal definition yet of who qualifies. That will only come when either new regs are passed in parliament defining a skirmisher, or there's precedent from a court case. Even then, decades of precedent can be overturned by a bolshy judge!