Where does the VCRA actually cover?

[Tiercel]

Quick question, what geographical areas does the VRCA actually cover? Asking because a potential buyer says hes in the Isle of Man and the VCRA doesnt apply there, so he doesnt need a UKARA number or other such defence. Can anyone clarify this for me as I cant seem to find anything concrete on the matter. Plus Im assuming Isle of Man would require some sort of airmail to be used, any tips for sending a RIF via airmail? Or is it just more hassle than its worth?

[Panoptes]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

Yes, I'm pretty sure IOM are exempt from all VCRA / UKARA bollox.

[tell 'em about the deviants!]

[Ajhayter]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

It's a self-governing crown-dependancy. It's not part of the UK, and as such uses Manx Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manx_law
As such the VCRA (and other UK laws) are only applicable if also ratified by the IoM government, which I don't believe has happened with the VCRA, so you should be good!

[Fil]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

Surely if you're based in the UK and you're selling a RIF then you're bound by the provisions of the VCRA? No buyer anywhere needs a defence to purchase a gun, it's the seller who needs the defence and i'm not sure that a buyer being based in another country would get you round that.

[Ajhayter]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

Surely if you're based in the UK and you're selling a RIF then you're bound by the provisions of the VCRA? No buyer anywhere needs a defence to purchase a gun, it's the seller who needs the defence and i'm not sure that a buyer being based in another country would get you round that.

The provisions only state that you can't sell to someone who doesn't have ownership exemption. Since the recipient lives in the IoM, then they are excempt from the ownership requirements under the VCRA, and thus you can sell to them. Note I am saying ownership requirements, not purchasing requirements.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

I believe the VCRA specifically states it applies in England, Scotland, Wales in the main document, and Northern Ireland in a separate, but virtually identical, part of the document.

I suppose, technically, you would be liable as you are in the UK. However, last time I checked, there was no prohibition in the VCRA against EXPORT of IFs/RIFs. I guess they WANT the guns to leave the country.

[Fil]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

The provisions only state that you can't sell to someone who doesn't have ownership exemption. Since the recipient lives in the IoM, then they are excempt from the ownership requirements under the VCRA, and thus you can sell to them. Note I am saying ownership requirements, not purchasing requirements.

Where exactly in the VCRA is this ownership exemption or ownership requirements? I'm pretty sure that the VCRA defence is about the purpose for the sale and nothing to do with ownership. As it is if the sale originates in the England, Wales, Scotland or NI I can't see how the VCRA wouldn't apply and require the seller to be able to satisfy a defence against section 36, regardless of where the RIF will eventually end up.

[1st commando]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

It's not the seller who has to have defence , it's the buyer (which is the sellers reponsibility to check)

Otherwise every retailer would just have defence and be able to sell to every Tom ,Dick or harry in your understanding of the VCRA

IoM is indeed exempt and you do not need to prove anything under VCRA to sell or export

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

It's not the seller who has to have defence , it's the buyer (which is the sellers reponsibility to check)

Otherwise every retailer would just have defence and be able to sell to every Tom ,Dick or harry in your understanding of the VCRA

No, you are wrong.

The offence would be committed by the seller, so the seller needs the defence against prosecution. That defence is provided by the buyer being eligible.
The reason for this is VERY SIMPLE:

Someone (retailer or not) who has possession of a RIF wouldn't care who he sold it to if he were not liable to prosecution, and a criminal wanting a RIF wouldn't care if he broke the law by buying one.
The VCRA made the SELLER liable (and thus in need of a defence to sell) in order to reduce the liklihood of criminals getting hold of IFs/RIFs.

Your error is explained buy the commonly (but erroneously) stated need for buyers to have a defence - this in itself is an over-simplification which places the responsibility in the wrong hands.

[1st commando]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

sigh*

[Fil]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

sigh*

He's right tho, section 36 of the VCRA is quite clear in that it's an offence to sell a RIF. There's no mention of it being an offence to buy a RIF. The seller needs a defence to sell a RIF and in the case of airsoft it's usually that the sale is being made for the purpose of airsoft skirmishing as defined in the regulations that set out the defence. All the buyer needs is sufficient evidence to satisfy the seller that they would be able to use the defence for the sale. If the seller decided to make the sale without being satisfied that they could use the defence because the buyer couldn't provide sufficient evidence it'd be the seller committing the offence, not the buyer.

[1st commando]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

Correct as in it is an offence to sell to someone who "does not have defence" nowt to do with the VCRA if sold to someone outside of UK law jurisdiction .

It's the buyer needing the defence to make sure the seller doesn't break the law by selling to them

[Fil]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

Correct as in it is an offence to sell to someone who "does not have defence" nowt to do with the VCRA if sold to someone outside of UK law jurisdiction .

It's the buyer needing the defence to make sure the seller doesn't break the law by selling to them

Ok, where in the VCRA does it say anything about it being an offence for someone over 18 to purchase a RIF? Or that the buyer requires a defence?

The VCRA makes it clear that the offence is for selling and provides that you have a defence from being charged with said offence if you can show that the sale was made for the purpose of making the RIF available for airsoft skirmishing. This is why sellers are required to check the status of the buyer so they can keep a record demonstrating that they have in fact made the sale for the purpose set out in the defence. And when the VCRA makes the sale of a RIF an offence then I think it has everything to do with sales originating in the UK.

[BAMF]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

I like the part of this thread where people who have very limited knowledge and experience of how the laws of the land (And its courts) actually operate, enter and start spouting the same diatribe they do on exactly every other VCRA discussion thread.

If you aren't qualified in law in any way, shape or form, please stop telling people that what you are saying is fact and is just your opinion of how you interpret the law.

I can tell people (From personal, first hand experience) that you're talking out of your hoops!

[N_Scooby]

Re: Where does the VCRA actually cover?

The VCRA would only cover the sale if the buyer is in the UK. As the buyer is outside of the UK they are governed by the laws of the IoM. If the laws of the IoM do not say the buyer cannot buy the RIF then no laws have been broken.