idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

[Heinz]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

The Waffen SS were by and large an elite fighting force (although they did commit atrocities), but other groups like the Allgemaine or Totenkopf were more 'death squads' and are NOT portrayed in WW2 airsoft events

Rather a lot of atrocities as it happens. You're correct about the portrayal of Allgemeine SS in Airsoft but wrong about Totenkopf - they are portrayed (been there, done that for France 1940 and Eastern Front late war scenarios myself). Good to see you linked to Martin's excellent article

Regards

Jay (AKA Kermit - one of the CiA WW2 Airsoft event organisers for 6 years)

[PureSilver]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

So we should all turn up in adidas trackies rockport boots and helly hansen bubble jackets may as well top it off with a burberry cap and a thick gold chain.....

Hint - if you have to reply with things that I haven't actually said in any shape or form, you're losing the argument. Better luck next time.

actually i have seen people airsoft in boar war uniform and many others have at large events such as groundzeroweekender

Really? That's kind of regrettable, isn't it. Well, if I see any, I'll make sure to scrupulously and without bias explain to them the misdeeds of the British in Africa. Or you could do it for me!

I agree with a lot of what you're saying actually, and the threads you're pointing out do reinforce your ideas nicely. It does seem sadly that on here there are players who would like to get dressed up in a Gestapo uniform. What you're missing is that there are a whole host of dedicated WW2 Airsofters (really they are reenactors) who 'reconstruct' the German Armed Forces of WW2.

Re-enactors are one thing; airsoft is another. Here's how I'm rationalising that - if you re-enact, you do it for the benefit of other people, as part of helping people remember history that we don't want to repeat. If you're doing it for no-one's edification but your own, you're not re-enacting, you're just airsofting.

Also a distinction needs to be made between the various forces of the SS. The Waffen SS were by and large an elite fighting force (although they did commit atrocities), but other groups like the Allgemaine or Totenkopf were more 'death squads' and are NOT portrayed in WW2 airsoft events.

I'm unconvinced by the argument that it's OK to dress up as the guard but not the executioner, but in any case your argument is largely invalidated by this photo:



Mm, that's a totenkopf right there unless I'm much mistaken. Of course, even if I am much mistaken, do click through and have a look at the cap they're recommending.

Many do dress as Waffen SS though, and one of the things that must be remembered is that if this makes them a Nazi, then would a Russian impression make them a Commie? The Russians did some pretty nasty things throughout WW2 and of course, because they helped win, it is mostly overlooked. Then again what is to say a person wearing unidentifiable kit is a perfectly normal person who doesn't hold any dodgy views whatsoever?

I'm not saying that dressing up as a Nazi makes you a Nazi. What I'm saying is that dressing up as a Nazi is an ugly, distasteful thing that has no real place in regular airsoft, an environment that is not exactly conducive to a sober analysis of the innumerable war crimes committed by the people the player is impersonating. Secondly, and trying hard not to be overtly defensive, I look forward to your explanation of how the Russians sinned more than they were sinned against in WWII. I'm not arguing that any sides in WWII were angels - Dresden, Katyn and Canicattì all prove that. But bluntly there is no sane argument that the really cool elements of the SS were much more than devils.

What I am trying to say is that the uniform doesn't make the player, the player is wearing the uniform to preserve the 'suspension of disbelief' that is prominent in WW2 airsoft games. Certain scenarios do involve Waffen SS as they were actually there for the real battle. I agree to a certain extent that it is vaguely distasteful to portray the godawful thing that is war through airsoft, but it is something that happens, and the scenarios that are set up to reenact real battles are set up with thought and tact.

As I've said further up the page, I appreciate that re-enactors are having fun and that they may also do some good. Occasionally refreshing the awful things that happened in past wars is useful; to quote:

'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened.

You might be interested to know that the good General said those words after visiting some of the SS' old playgrounds, including sunny little places all wrapped up in barbed wire. I've no problem with historical re-enactment; that's all well and good. What I find frankly repugnant is the idea that instead of remembering Nazism and its various footsoldiers as what they are - a warning from history - people are roleplaying them on the weekends because they look good. If you can't see why making casual entertainment out of the SS is wrong, well we're never going to see eye to eye on this one.

you have to remember that those who caused the atoricities within the Wehrmact were more the exception, not the rule.

No, I don't. That's the point I'm trying to make. The atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht weren't just the rule, they were the rules. For a start, the Reichsmarshall of the Wehrmacht was none other than Hermann Göring, who ordered the Final Solution. Every member of the Wehrmacht swore an oath of loyalty to the Führer. In fact, so numerous were the war crimes of the allegedly apolitical fighting force that they have a whole Wikipedia page for it.

It's 15,000 words long.

[PureSilver]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

TMost people who dress as 'Nazis' or German Armed Forces in public do so because the Germans had the cool looking kit and a lot of people want to be the 'bad guy.' To them it's no different than picking to play Vader rather than a Jedi in Star Wars, to reference an earlier comparison. Do they really support or condone mass murders and atrocities? I'd say (and hope) not.

Good for them! I'm glad that they're dressing up as 3. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Totenkopf because they look good, rather than because they were all SS-Totenkopfverbände. There's more horror and human suffering packed into that last long word there than you, or indeed anyone that wasn't there, can possibly imagine. I think I'd support people wearing Totenkopf if first they had to have a tour of Auschwitz, like I have. It does rather change your perspective on the things you're happy to see cross your sights on your average skirmish.

2, if that offends you then I'm afraid that's something you'll have to live with. Could I say I'm sickened by people in DPM because my family is Irish and were persecuted by the British Army in recent decades? Could I berate someone for dressing as 'African militia' because I had a friend who lost family in the Rwandan genocide? The answer is a personal one I guess, but what I should probably realise is that committed Nazis in the 40s might have done those things, Rwandan fighters in the 90s might have done those things, but the guy who turns up to an airsoft game in similar looking gear did not, anymore than the guy with the AK and big fury hat is responsible for the many more people who died under Stalin's rule. i dont think he should be made to dress in a way that might not potentially hurt anyone's feelings.

I'm afraid that it does appear to be something I'll have to live with, but I'm afraid that won't stop me from being loud and annoying about it. Fortunately, the people that originally wore those uniforms lost the war, so I have the freedom to complain that people that wear them now are demeaning, desecrating and generally treating one of the worst episodes in human history as their own playtime. I'm not going to try and stop anyone from doing it, I'm going to ask people to have a quick flick through Yad Vashem's online archives before they start goosestepping about their living room. And please, don't try to equate someone that dresses up as something as generic as 'African combatant' or 'Russian guy with AK' with someone that carefully assembles a 38-piece replica of a particular German unit. They aren't the same thing.

[Hawaiian Special Forces]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

I appreciate the passion going into a discussion like this, but this Nazi/Wehrmacht/German and atrocity derail is a bit off the point. My view on real versus fictional scenarios is that I would rather more fictional scenarios, I don't think anyone has a problem with British or American airsoft-loadout teams going up against Russian dudes, in fact that happens a lot and is totally feasible and fictional without POTENTIALLY trivialising a real and current conflict by dressing up in ethnic clothing as islamic stereotypes so NATO team can feel like they're really in Afghanistan right now.

I'm uncomfortable with that, but I love playing the bad guy, hence my desire for the exploration of the concept of the British rebel fighter.

[PureSilver]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Yeah - I am sorry for the derailment! I meant well:

I like the idea you've presented in this thread so much

Let's take it to PM, people. Or, a thread in the German Loadouts subforum!

[Heinz]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

You might have done a tour of Auschwitz, but you know sod all about the Waffen SS - or re-enactment, or WW2 Airsoft. As someone whose obviously not been a re-enactor or a WW2 Airsofter (or one of those people that sits in both groups - been there, done that) it's plain to me that you really don't have a clue as to what drives re-enactors and WW2 Airsofters. I was a re-enactor for 15+ years, a WW2 Airsofter for 7 years and a WW2 Airsoft events organiser for 6 years. If you think that re-enactors "do it for the benefit of other people" then you really have no clue what you're talking about.

With regards to the photo (of which two of them were fellow Comrades in Arms event organisers, and I know the rest of them in that pic as well), you're talking crap. There are no Totenkopf Division SS in that pic, they are all regular Waffen SS. The deaths head on the hat goes back to the Brunswick tradition of elite units using the deaths head (the literal translation of Totenkopf). Hell, even the British Army used it as the cap badge of the 17th/21st Lancers!

I suppose that you'll now WIki up some more details on something you obviously know little about.

[PureSilver]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Oh, all right, if you insist...

You might have done a tour of Auschwitz, but you know sod all about the Waffen SS - or re-enactment, or WW2 Airsoft.

Evidently. You know I find people dressed as Nazis offensive. Why would I hang about the kind of people who are knowledgeable about the Waffen SS? To paraphrase, everything I needed to know about the Waffen SS I learned from my relatives, some of whom have little numbers on their forearms, a bit like cattle. Except, of course, I didn't just learn it from them - I learnt it speeches and recordings from surviving members of the Wehrmacht, and from meetings some of the RAF, too! Oh - and from going to some of the SS' old haunts. Some of them represent the deathplace of over a million people.

As someone whose obviously not been a re-enactor or a WW2 Airsofter (or one of those people that sits in both groups - been there, done that) it's plain to me that you really don't have a clue as to what drives re-enactors and WW2 Airsofters. I was a re-enactor for 15+ years, a WW2 Airsofter for 7 years and a WW2 Airsoft events organiser for 6 years. If you think that re-enactors "do it for the benefit of other people" then you really have no clue what you're talking about.

Congratulations, you dress up like a Nazi? I was being charitable by suggesting that you might be roleplaying history's biggest murderers for a better reason than 'because I look good in leather'. Do please justify it to me!

With regards to the photo (or which two of them were fellow Comrades in Arms event organisers, and I know the rest of them in that pic as well), you're talking crap. There are not Totenkopf Division SS in that pic, they are all regular SS. The deaths head on the hat goes back to the Brunswick tradition of elite units using the deaths head (the literal translation of Totenkopf). Hell, even the British Army used it as the cap badge of the 17th/21st Lancers!

Congratulations - your friends dress up like Nazis too? You'll have to excuse my Wikipedia - I had to look up the last battle the 17th Lancers fought in. Turns out, it was in WWI and has bugger all to do with Nazism. Arguing that the totenkopf hasn't taken on a newer, sinister and universally recognised meaning is like arguing that the swastika "is just, like, a Buddhist symbol, man!". And anyway, what makes dressing up as the regular SS any better?

[Hawaiian Special Forces]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Stop.

Derailing.

Thank you.



EDIT: This kind of thing looks neat, the hoody isn't any old thing and the character looks like he is ready to move and act quickly, which characters do a lot of in Brink, makes him look like more of a fighter.

[Heinz]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Sorry for the derailment HSF (by the way, just need to add a sawn off shotty to those drawings and it would be mint for a British Gang member), but if talking about "British Rebel" in a Children of Men type situation then i'm thinking:

Jeans
BCH
Belt order cobbled together from surplus store PLCE and 58 pattern webbing
Surplus British Army DPM jacket
Shemagh used to cover lower face
Sawn off double barreled shotgun or purloined Army/Plod weaponry





Anyway, to respond to the young 'un.

Oh, all right, if you insist...
Evidently. You know I find people dressed as Nazis offensive. Why would I hang about the kind of people who are knowledgeable about the Waffen SS? To paraphrase, everything I needed to know about the Waffen SS I learned from my relatives, some of whom have little numbers on their forearms, a bit like cattle. Except, of course, I didn't just learn it from them - I learnt it speeches and recordings from surviving members of the Wehrmacht, and from meetings some of the RAF, too! Oh - and from going to some of the SS' old haunts. Some of them represent the deathplace of over a million people.

I had members of my family on both sides of the war, so believe me, I get the history angle (British Mum, German dad). Odd thing is that some of my relatives on the German side served in the armed forces during the war, yet I also had a relative who died at the hands of the SA during running street battles in pre war times (that relative was a committed Communist apparently)

Congratulations, you dress up like a Nazi? I was being charitable by suggesting that you might be roleplaying history's biggest murderers for a better reason than 'because I look good in leather'. Do please justify it to me!

Why should I even attempt to justify myself to you? The simple fact is that I used to do it because they had the coolest kit and the coolest weapons - much like why you see so many US and UK SF loadouts at Airsoft sites.

Congratulations - your friends dress up like Nazis too? You'll have to excuse my Wikipedia - I had to look up the last battle the 17th Lancers fought in. Turns out, it was in WWI and has bugger all to do with Nazism. Arguing that the totenkopf hasn't taken on a newer, sinister and universally recognised meaning is like arguing that the swastika "is just, like, a Buddhist symbol, man!". And anyway, what makes dressing up as the regular SS any better?

17th/21st Lancers were disbanded in 1993. It's odd that you say that WW1 has nothing to do with Nazism. If it wasn't for WW1 there would have been no Nazism! Then again, I guess you're probably not a history student? Sheesh, it's like arguing with someone from London Met or London South Bank (though given the volume and self importance, SOAS is a possibility as well)

[Isolate]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

I'm really liking the idea behind this post, and keeping this on track I'd have to say what you wore for this kind of loadout could vary a lot depending on what kind of game you were at (woodland, CQB, urban etc) and relating to that whether you'd rather look more civilian to blend in with people, or a little camouflaged to blend in with your environment. If it was the former, things like old jeans, black or OD combat trousers, Catapillar boots or similar (as in the Brink picture above) and maybe a leather jacket or coat with lots of big pockets to hold mags in. For the latter, surplus-looted DPM's with some kind of patch or armband to show your rebel allegiance would probably be more suitable, with some kind of basic webbing or belt setup. And of course, long coats of any sort will always make you look badass. :D

[fuzzhead]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

The Queen's Royal Lancers to this day use a deaths head with or glory underneath

[Heinz]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Hmmm. Thinking logically, a "British Rebel" is quite likely to end up looking like the IRA did in their heyday - that mix of civvie and surplus store, a la:

[Longshot]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

Last thing I’ll say on this (off topic at least). I think that Pure has a point, to a degree. I think my main issue was with the original idea of a side being “unequivocally wrong,” because I don’t think anything is ever as simple as that and because the Nazis are always singled out as the example to use despite the fact that many, many countries have acted just like them in the past; they just did it on a bigger scale. Ironically, this ‘special’ status seems to work positively as well as negatively as it allows people to dress up in a way that they wouldn’t normally dream of doing and see no problem with it.

Imagine, drawing on an earlier example I gave, that I saw someone at an airsoft game dressed as ‘African militia’ and I walked over and said: “wow, great militia loadout,” only for him to reply: “thanks. I’m actually a Rwandan Hutu Interemhanwe militiaman from 1994. Specifically I’m portraying the group that went into Kigali with a list of all the Tutsi homes and then dragged women and children into the street and butchered them with machetes. Look here: this is a real machete that one of them carried! And these are genuine early 90s Nike Classic trainers – they were really prized over there back then!” I imagine I’d be fairly disgusted.

That said, if I spoke to someone at airsoft dressed as a ‘Nazi’ I doubt they’d go on about how they were dressed as someone who rounded up and murdered people. I imagine they’d probably tell me about the military accomplishments of the unit they are portraying, or the fun they’ve had collecting all the right pieces. I don’t think I’d start criticising them about what the Nazis did. Equally if I saw someone in a WW2 British airman loadout, and he told about how well the squadron he is portraying flew, I wouldn’t start calling him an inconsiderate scumbag because the British airforce was responsible for the mass murder of civilians in their homes through an intentional concerted campaign of terror and death in the firebombing of Dresden.

To conclude, I’m torn. I’ve organised several Holocaust awareness days and spoken to many survivors. All of them seem to want two things: for the events they suffered through to be remembered and for them not to happen again. I think these are worthy causes. The problem is that WW2 airsoft and re-enactment actually help neither of these things, because in both cases the focus is on military action with the politics behind it forgotten. Should this be the case? That’s open for debate. But it does leave me feeling that it’s hard to feel that someone who is dressed as a German at an airsoft or re-enactment event is not doing so to promote Facism or genocide and so shouldn’t be treated as such.

[Hawaiian Special Forces]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

00-11-12-07-021.jpg2XBmYl.jpg1008577.jpg91373973.jpga25_52850912.jpgREU-SYRIA-CRISIS-4.jpgs_h11_12303754.jpgs_l26_21705765.jpg

Did some searches and picked up these images of Syrian/Middle Eastern rebel fighters. Couple of things that I notice right away that can be drawn together to a rebel look

- Headbands/Bandanas. Possibly Religious/Nationalistic. Potentially use British flags for this.
- Casual but utilitarian clothes.
- Some surplus tac gear
- Shoulder bags or backpacks, especially if the fighter has no load bearing gear.
- Bullet belts.
- Nonspecific/Mixed camo

Weapons seem to be a totally mixed bag.
- Lots of AKs/t56s, Double even triple-mag taped setups, occasional images of tacticool tapco AKs.
- PKs, RPDs.
- Tabuk snipers/ cloned dragunovs
- ARs, could be a few modern ones or could be old school AR15s.
- FALs, G3s
- even Steyr AUGs and SIGs. Never underestimate the possibility of wealthy foreign backers.
- Curiously absent from my searches are SMGs, save for the occasional Mac or Uzi.

[voodooTheMarshmallow]

Re: idea: The British Rebel Fighter - What would they look like?

I just want to point out a few things. Is it actually certain that the Third Reich have killed more people than any other?
I for one sympathise (for the most part ) with the german people. Before the second world war they lived in a horrible state constantly being pushed down and in a very depressed country but then a charismatic man appears who promises change and he delivers it at first.So they followed him.
Most german people , soldiers and even members of the SS ( the fighting divisions) didn't know about the atrocities committed.
I can say quite honestly that if all of us here were alive in 1930's Germany as the average citizen that you would have supported him. It's very easy to judge a people with historical hindsight. Most of the atrocities committed were by a select few and it was covered up. I in no way support the true Nazi party but tarring all the German people and Wehrmacht with the same brush is quite incorrect.


Back on track though. I think that the type of loudout others have suggested with jeans/trackies with hoodies would probably be the most realistic although with some PMC and militarised twists added in. Children of men is a good film for inspiration.

Infact watch some zombie films that may give you inspiration as they could ( possibly ) end up using similar kit.
If this were to happen there would probably be a bunch of lunatic 14 year old boys dressed as ninja with katanas. The most annoying type of person interested in history although also the most stupid. Sorry I'm rambling... Happy new year chaps.