Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwise

[N_Scooby]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

Surely a forum ban is in order for these people as other forums do?

They can get an 'Under 18' tag if they are proved to be. That way no one can sell them RIF's.

Other than that you cannot ban someone for trying to buy a RIF. You could ban them for getting nasty if the seller was to refuse them (the same as if a heated discussion got nasty) but they are not actually doing anything wrong by asking. Morally maybe, legally not.

[Fizzy]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

They can get an 'Under 18' tag if they are proved to be. That way no one SHOULD sell them RIF's.

Fixed that for you, because reality is unfortunately different...

[EverettTheUrban]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

As annoying it is for people who get bombarded with these kind of requests, I can't help but sympathise a little bit with some people. From experience it's fairly frustrating when trying to get a hold of an AEG without a UKARA (I don't turn 18 until the winter) unless you go to somewhere that does free two-toning like Zero One. But yeah, it's a dick move to keep harrassing someone when they've made it clear they don't feel comfortable with selling to you.

[Figjam]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

I'd trade all my ukara buying privileges for a full head of hair, energy, lack of a requirement for any sort of responsibility, my 17 year old waistline, and the right to act like irony is this amazing new thing I've just discovered.

[Genesius]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

lol.

banning a 0 poster wont matter to them. they have nothing to lose. its so easy to open an account. What would work (and I've said it before) is having a minimum amount of posts required to even see the for sale section. Its common practice on other forums that I frequent and it really does stop people like this wasting other peoples time. It also reduces the risk of selling to someone without a defence and it means that only people who have contributed to the site and therefore the community get to see what's on offer. Plus it would mean more first time buyers having to go 'in store' to Zero One for their first purchase than buying second hand. That's more revenue to Zero in, so why they wont do it I have no idea.

maybe a 25 post minimum (or a random number around there that no ones knows, so that it doesn't become a target to reach)

[speedbird_666]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

I've stopped selling and responding to zero posters.

They are doing my head in with 'I gt a m8 @ (insert site name here) site tht sceen me play ther...will u sell 2 me wiv out UKaRa ????'

Urm...no...I won't sell to you.

[sparrowhawk]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

I was trying to buy a rif the other day, my ukara has expired but the shopkeeper would not accept the 7 or 8 recent bb scabs on my arms as proof that I am a skirmisher

[Fizzy]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

From experience it's fairly frustrating when trying to get a hold of an AEG without a UKARA (I don't turn 18 until the winter) unless you go to somewhere that does free two-toning like Zero One

From experience? Under 18? Well yeah it should be difficult to get a RIF if you're U18

That aside, UKARA isn't everything. Infact the UMP I referenced earlier was sold to someone who wasn't registered on the UKARA database. He told me which site he played at regularly, I emailed them, they confirmed who he was, job done!

[Fenrisianspirit]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

From experience? Under 18? Well yeah it should be difficult to get a RIF if you're U18

That aside, UKARA isn't everything. Infact the UMP I referenced earlier was sold to someone who wasn't registered on the UKARA database. He told me which site he played at regularly, I emailed them, they confirmed who he was, job done!

I am not on the UKARA database (despite satisfying conditions) and have purchased several RIFs, from reputable chaps too. Provided ways to contact the sites I play at.

- - - Updated - - -

From experience? Under 18? Well yeah it should be difficult to get a RIF if you're U18

That aside, UKARA isn't everything. Infact the UMP I referenced earlier was sold to someone who wasn't registered on the UKARA database. He told me which site he played at regularly, I emailed them, they confirmed who he was, job done!

I am not on the UKARA database (despite satisfying conditions) and have purchased several RIFs, from reputable chaps too. Provided ways to contact the sites I play at.

[Longshot]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

I think if you're the seller then it's your RIF and it's up to you who you sell it to, no matter what the reason. You have to be satisfied that you have a defence (note you, not them, since it's the seller not the buyer that needs to have a defence).

That said, the law is ridiculous (and most airsofters, including those on this thread, have no idea what it actually says). There is nothing in the law about being a "regular skirmisher" - in fact neither of those words is mentioned at all. Technically you can establish your defence as a seller even if you sell to someone who has never played airsoft even once before.

[snuff]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

Can you link to the law because I would like to read it.

[Longshot]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

Can you link to the law because I would like to read it.

It's tricky because it's a couple of laws, primarily the VCRA 2006 (which doesn't mention airsoft) and then the additional regulations which were added in 2007 (but which still don't mention airsoft, but from which we formulate our defence). Anyway, here is my 'summary' of it all with links to the full documents (if you have a few hours to kill!):

Laws Regarding Buying and Selling Imitation Firearms Relevant to Airsoft

As the law currently stands (and it stands on the whim of the Home Secretary):

In relation to UNDER 18s:

- it is legal to own an IF or a RIF
- it is illegal to buy an IF or a RIF if you are under 18
- it is illegal to sell an IF or a RIF to an under 18

From 'VCRA 2006' Section 40 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/40

In relation to OVER 18s:

- it is legal to own an IF or a RIF
- it is legal to buy an IF or a RIF if you are over 18
- it is legal to sell an IF to an over 18
- it is illegal to sell a RIF to an over 18
- it is illegal to manufacture a RIF
- it is illegal to import a RIF

From 'VCRA 2006' Section 36 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36

NOTE 1: if you wish to import a RIF, manufacture a RIF or sell a RIF to an over 18 you can avail yourself of a 'defence against prosecution' if you can show that you believed that you were intending to provide the RIF for "the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation" (an example of which is 'airsoft skirmishing') at a site with third party liability insurance. One way for a seller to do this is to establish that the buyer is registered with the UKARA database, though this is by no means a legal requirement or the only way for the seller to establish a defence for themselves.

From 'VCRA 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007' - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/20072606.htm

With further notes specific to airsoft in 'VCRA 2006 (Commencement No 3) Order 2007' - https://www.gov.uk/government/public...earms-measures

NOTE 2: any attempt to commit one of the offences listed as illegal above is also illegal in itself.

From 'Criminal Attempts Act 1981' Section 1 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/47/section/1

NOTE 3: the defence required to manufacture a RIF is not age specific, so an under 18 should be able to do so legally as long as they can prove their defence.

Acronym Glossary:

IF: Imitation Firearm (in relation to airsoft this is generally recognised as an airsoft gun which is painted over 50% in an 'unrealistic' colour - this is generally referred to as 'two tone')

RIF: Realistic Imitation Firearm (in relation to airsoft this is generally recognised as an airsoft gun which is 'realistically' coloured so as not be easily distinguishable from a real firearm)

VCRA: Violent Crime Reduction Act (the most recent law which directly affects the buying and selling of imitation firearms)

UKARA: United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association (a group created by leading UK airsoft retailers to easily establish a defence against prosecution for themselves when selling imitation firearms - they maintain a database of airsoft players for this purpose; to be entered on the database a player must play three games in over a two month period at a registered airsoft site)

[snuff]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

Surely though we as "responsible" airsofters self regulate by way of UKARA,which also specifies certain criteria when purchasing said RIF's.Where UKARA are a group of Airsoft retailers who have formed an association to protect their businesses and enable the sale of Realistic Imitation Firearms ( RiF's), to the newly restricted recognised and approved customers resulting from the Violent Crime Reduction Act (VCRA).

[Mr_Lemming]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

This is all valid food for thought - I'll be sure to keep my wits about me when I get selling again.
I appreciate that I haven't been active in the sport for years but I don't want to risk 'softers getting negative press (or me getting in legal trouble!) if I sell a RIF to Little Billy Summerhols.

[Olphy]

Re: Annoyed. People who clearly have no right to a RIf trying to convince me otherwi

I had one the other day, wanted to buy my AUG, lowballed me and then said he wouldn't gift cause 'he wanted some security', despite pointing out that if I was going to rip him off, paying Paypal fees wouldn't matter dick.

Little fecker soon went silent when I asked him for UKARA.