What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

[MiniSnipa]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

No i mean regarding the not stopping people

[pinkyanthebrain]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

now this is only my opinion, passwords can be passed on, forums hacked ect ect . its all been done before. you can never be sure who you are dealing with over a Internet forum unless you know them personally.

[Chowder Head]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

Are we remembering the fact that people sell accessories with their gun which they are usually happy to split?

I've got a few items which are often quite hard to come by in the accessories for sale section just by asking if the seller would be happy to sell something separately from their gun package being sold in the Guns for Sale section.

[Weeble]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

Locking away all sales threads from people who don't have a UKARA number is a huge over-reaction in my opinion.

In truth, the only way you'll ever create a 'secure' sales section in which only legal sales may occur is to create a stand-alone application, one that operates very similar to an actual (law-abiding) retailer store, like ZeroOne.

It's impossible to stop illegal sales, yet I understand why people want to try. However, passwording the sales section of the forums is entirely the wrong thing to do.

[Another]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

To play devils advocate here, first time buying through the UKARA scheme is ridiculously expensive in some places. My local sight charges £50 for rentals, and then £50 for a yars UKARA registered, so thats £200 off the at before you even get to buy a gun. And lets face it, Two tone look crap, have the second hand selling potential of a Jetski in the sahara.

So I can see the draw for wanting to buy second hand. For some people £200 is not that much money, but for others it is and I hear the phrase "airsoft is an expensive sport" banded around far too much, it doesn't have to be.

Besides, before VCRA came, and any joe shmo could buy airsoft guns. You could buy springers down most £1 shops. The world did not grind down to anarchy.

I do not see why you are so angry at these players. If they are at a proper skirmish site using their airsoft guns, does it really matter to you where they got them from, it's not like their miss using them. I understand there is a potential for someone to buy and miss use one, but thats like anything in life, so get used to it.

I'm not encouraging anyone to break the law, but I just don't see why your so riled up about it.

[danhc]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

To play devils advocate here, first time buying through the UKARA scheme is ridiculously expensive in some places. My local sight charges £50 for rentals, and then £50 for a yars UKARA registered, so thats £200 off the at before you even get to buy a gun. And lets face it, Two tone look crap, have the second hand selling potential of a Jetski in the sahara.

So I can see the draw for wanting to buy second hand. For some people £200 is not that much money, but for others it is and I hear the phrase "airsoft is an expensive sport" banded around far too much, it doesn't have to be.

Besides, before VCRA came, and any joe shmo could buy airsoft guns. You could buy springers down most £1 shops. The world did not grind down to anarchy.

I do not see why you are so angry at these players. If they are at a proper skirmish site using their airsoft guns, does it really matter to you where they got them from, it's not like their miss using them. I understand there is a potential for someone to buy and miss use one, but thats like anything in life, so get used to it.

I'm not encouraging anyone to break the law, but I just don't see why your so riled up about it.

Well said that man

[jagillham]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

You're totally missing the point of this thread, by saying that you don't think ukara is right. Whilst many of us do not agree with the laws, they are just that. Considering we were lucky to keep airsoft in any form, you don't have to be a genius to realise that we have to be making an effort in the right direction, or could face further questioning into why we need realistic guns.

Any system won't be perfect, but that is a poor excuse not to try. Again for the sake of creating a pain for a few, we should look at the bigger picture of keeping the sport as we know it!

This forum is probably the easiest place to obtain a rif online without checks, that's not a good thing!

[JayJay-2008]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

It may seem like i'm attempting to set the cat amongst the pigeons here, and in a way I am, but no-one is forcing the sellers to make a sale unless THEY are entirely satisfied that the buyer is legit.

What I believe Another is trying to say is that UKARA is a simple way of ensuring registration for those that have the money, a sort of lazy mans option if you will.

Most sites are offering some form of membership which with a little patience, a decent telephone manner and a bit of common sense can all be checked relatively quickly, and No UKARA in sight.

There are some sites out there that are treating the UKARA scheme as a way to make a fast buck, a kind of supply and demand situation, and for some it is simply not affordable.

We could get lost in debate for hours/days as to whether or not we think UKARA is right or not but the point at the end of the day is that SELLERS are the people that are responsible for preventing these people from buying RIFS. When it comes to it, if you're not happy then don't sell it!

Sorry if my opinion goes against those of the many but it seems to me that people are looking for scapegoats and not solutions.

Regards

Jay

[Phil_Anthropist]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

I do not see why you are so angry at these players. If they are at a proper skirmish site using their airsoft guns, does it really matter to you where they got them from, it's not like their miss using them. I understand there is a potential for someone to buy and miss use one, but thats like anything in life, so get used to it.

I'm not encouraging anyone to break the law, but I just don't see why your so riled up about it.

"I understand there is a potential for someone to buy and miss use one, but thats like anything in life, so get used to it."

A slightly different thing to what happened in 1997 (Handgun Ban) but that sort of attitude is exactly the wrong sort of message we ought to be sending out to those who don't airsoft. What we NEED to do is reduce the chances of misuse to the lowest possible level, that way we can prove ourselves to be a responsible sport.

"I'm not encouraging anyone to break the law, but I just don't see why your so riled up about it"

Beacuse it is WRONG, plain and simple.

[danhc]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

i dont know if im missing the point or something but even if you do stop the illegal trades on this forum they will still happen, people will just meet up on another forum or at a skirmish site or by other means, there is no way to fully stop it, drugs may be illegal but they are still sold and a substantial amount at that, people will still find a way around it so why try hardning up the forum against this if people are just going to find another way to do it? and whilst hardning up the forum making it hard for others to find what they want.

[JayJay-2008]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

This is a classic case of the actions of a few, spoiling it for the many.

I DO understand the need for some form of control in the sale/trading of RIFs but it's just these sort of attitudes that are turning this country into a nanny state.

If someone commits burglary with a RIF then look for / punish that one person, not an entire community of sportsmen. It's a bit like saying that every road in the UK will now have a 30mph speed limit so that it would be easier to manage drivers that choose to speed.

Next they'll be telling me that I can't keep cutlery in case someone breaks into my house, steals a knife and uses it in a crime elsewhere.

Air Rifles went the same way, and if we continue to just submit in this fashion, before long there's going to be a requirement to hold a firearms certificate in order to possess a RIF.

It is the responsibility of the user to ensure that any item is going to be used for it's intended function and no-one elses.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should break the law but I am of the opinion that if we weren't so quick to conform we wouldn't be having this very conversation in the first place.

[army will]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

as previously mentioned ukara is not the only form of defence. my site offers under the p.a.s.s system and many other sites are using their own systems due to the fact that they are getting hacked off with ukara. for example when my site renewed its insurance the owner had to prompt ukara people to confirm that they still had the ability to operate as a skirmish site, also new ukara-qualified people from the site were being refused rif sales as ukara had not got round to updating the database for months in arrrears despite repeated prompts. also what was the £300 deposit to join the scheme for and where did that go i wonder?

[Caveira]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

It is the responsibility of the user to ensure that any item is going to be used for it's intended function and no-one elses.

WRONG!

It is the responsibility of the SELLER to ensure that the person buying is legally covered by the defence. It is the seller, and not the buyer, who will be prosecuted if it comes to that.

I agree with a previous thread that a symbol could be added to our user details to show UKARA registration. That then lets people know that we are safe to trade with. For all other trades, it is the responsibility of the seller to protect themselves. After all, if you've played at a site with a person a few times, you don't need UKARA to prove they'r e a regular player.

As far as sales to under 18s are concerned, simply ask for ID. It is an offence to sell to an under 18, but unlike RIFs and over 18s, it's also an offence for them to purchase.

Yes, people can hack the forum, provide false ID and get their parents to buy them RIFs, but that is not the sellers problem. All the seller needs to do in order to protect themselves is show that they took reasonable precautions.

[Phil_Anthropist]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

people will still find a way around it so why try hardning up the forum against this if people are just going to find another way to do it? and whilst hardning up the forum making it hard for others to find what they want.

Because the vast majority want to keep enjoying a sport and don't want it ruined by a tiny minority.

We have a responsibility to "police" ourselves in order to protect our sport.

Certain people will always try to find a way round things but we have to make it as hard for people to break the rules as possible.

What would you rather have? a slightly smaller sport that operates sensibly and safely, OR, no sport at all because it's been banned?

[bravotwozero]

Re: What can be done for people who don't obey the rules?

You know I really don't know what people are complaining about...

The seller, who is responsible for the transaction needs two things from the buyer.

Proof of age
Proof of exemption, UKARA for instants.

Both of which are easily obtainable, you ask for a photocopy of an ID. Sorted.
You ask for the UKARA number, and check with zeroone. Sorted.


And if the ID is fake, who cares? Who done everything you can to carry out the deal in a legal way. You can't be held responsible for that.

And if the seller does not ask for these, then its enirely his own fault.

Oh, and zeroone acually offer a service now for second hand sales...so use that if your feeling so unhappy with people buying bb guns!