Clones Vs Morals

[Beef]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

value for money is a massive selling point for me, I dont care if its a clone as long as its the right price

This sums it up for me, Also add onto that looks, If it looks better also

[FullMetalAsh]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

Most guns that we buy do have elements of their construction similar to another one's yes, but as was said above, CA put a metal body on their M4, which in my eyes for a start makes it a different product. Other brands have made innovations with their brands of M4's, take ICS, their split gearbox design was their own doing, and as such must have incurred R&D costs as well as different manufacturing methods. It just so happens that nobody has cloned it yet (to my knowledge anyways) but if they did, it would be blatently obvious as it's such a unique design. That in my eyes would be Intellectual Theft. But if manufacturers take a product and improve it, make changes to the design and modify the way it works/looks, that in my eyes becomes a new product in its own right. As I said in my first post, replica's and clone's are a grey area to most people, clone has negative connotations but replica doesn't seem to in many cases, so it depends which side of the fence you're on. I would never go out and buy an RS EOTech because the price is ridiculous and it isn't designed for use in airsoft. However, I would consider almost any product that Magpul PTS brought out if I saw it had a purpose. Just because it may be expensive, it wouldn't put me off. But I certainly would try and avoid buying goods that were cloned off of PTS since as I said, they are TARGETED AT THIS MARKET, which to me changes the game totally. I don't have a law degree so my views are purely moral and personal, so feel free to inform me if I'm wrong about anything, I'll take it on board and reconsider my argument.

Also, while it is just a word, it still has connotations. Paki is just an abbreviation of Pakistani, however that has negative connotations and if you approached anybody of eastern decent and labelled them that word, I dare say they would take offence, for many reasons. Not just because it's not a pleasant word given it's history, but also because that person may not be from Pakistan but from India, where there is ongoing animosity as we all know, which I can understand causing offence. It's just disrespectful. Racism is the kind of thing where if it causes offence to someone, it should be stopped. I know that in this case it wasn't use with the intent of causing offence, but if someone has expressed genuine displeasure with it, it's not really anybodies place to question in. I must admit I do hate it when people take offence for other people though, that's a bit pathetic and nannylike.

[Coz]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

All this random racism chat crap made me think of this,

I have no color prejudices nor caste prejudices nor creed prejudices. All I care to know is that a man is a human being, and that is enough for me; he can't be any worse. (Mark Twain)

^^ Look i copied a quote, Is that Immoral?

[phatboi]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

All this random racism chat crap made me think of this,

I have no color prejudices nor caste prejudices nor creed prejudices. All I care to know is that a man is a human being, and that is enough for me; he can't be any worse. (Mark Twain)

^^ Look i copied a quote, Is that Immoral?

no i'd say you cloned it :P

[helpimonfire]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

My 2 pence on "clones"...

I love 'em. I'm a self confessed cheapsofter and I have several clones... I've owned more JG guns than I care to count and most of them have outperformed a RIF costing double the amount. Granted, there are a few shockingly bad clones out there though...

If it wasn't for clones, I would put money on the fact that half of the forum users wouldn't be here now. I know I wouldn't.

[cjftw]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

I don't have any problem with clones... Some people just can't afford all of the brand named gear whilst playing on a budget. However, if I did bite the bullet and purchase something which I thought was a genuine product and then I found it to be fake, I'd be really cheesed.

[Venison]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

what i want to know is where the big brand names place their "morals" in their products. the build quality of the gearbox in the TM MP7 is a disgrace, i could have and should have bought a china close for more than 50% cheaper. thats where it was made anyway.

i dont really see any reason to buy from TM again when JG seem to do the job with most clones as well as or possibly even better at a fraction of the cost.

[robobo]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

I have no problem with clones, they offer a cheap alternative to the more expensive brands.

However my only experience with a clone, a Dboys M4 bought by a mate at work who I got into airsoft a year ago I really was not impressed. Fair enough he's an apprentice on a much lower wage than me and for £120 he couldn't really go wrong. He had me downgrade it for him as it was too hot out the box. My impressions of the externals weren't great, lots of wobbly bits and generally felt cheap. Internally I was shocked (yes I am a Marui fan boy and probably always will be).

Put the gearbox along with barrel and hop next to a Marui one and without even touching it you can see the difference in quality.

The price of Japanese airsoft weapons has gone up drastically over the last few years yes. When I started playing 8 years ago you could buy a TM M4A1 for £180 or there abouts. Granted it is now nearer £300. From what I have been told the cost of Japanese brands has mainly gone up due to the economical situation over there and prices could jump by another 30% at some point in the future (that it what the owner of my local retailer told me in conversation).

All that said when it comes to accessories I'm all about cheaper brands.... I bought Z1's (shamefully) M3 pistol light for £30 and it's a good bit of kit, and extremely bright. Why would I want to spend 3/4 (or more) times that price? For something that has a brand badge on it?

As for morals, it's off topic but I would like to see the conditions in a Nike trainer factory and know what the workers get paid for your fancy £75 trainers.

Someone I know had to replace a part on his BMW, can't remember what part but he went to his local parts shops and there were two parts he could buy. The genuine BMW and the unbranded. Obviously the unbranded was cheaper so he bought that when he got it there was a raised bit that was all messy and looked like someone had taken an angle grinder to it (you may see where this is going). He asked what it was and the guy said that's the manufacturer removing the BMW logo..... true story. I know that was off topic but it came to me so just wanted to add it in

[Caveira]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

This has, yet again, gone miles off-topic!

What is you view on clones of real brands such as magpul etc?

The other thread was about kit like Magpul having people putting out copies of their kit which is a direct copy, right down to having brand names on it. That was the subject up for discussion here too.

OK, I know I'm one of the first people to take a thread off-topic sometimes, but WTF has CA cloning TM and being cloned by JG etc etc etc got to do with this? We all know that TM have been copied by most other makes and we should all be inteligent enough to recognise the difference between JG selling an M4 that says JG on it and some obscure backstreet factory selling something that says Magpul on it.

TM have had the option of suing all the other manufacturers for decades now and they've chosen not to. Why? Because the others haven't pretended that what they are selling is a TM product. So, if TM are happy with this, then what's the use of going down this road? Let's stick roughly to the original question, which after all is where the moral ambiguity actually is.

[seansamurai1]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

I wonder how many rights TM can officially use, bearing in mind Umarex (who dont just do Airsoft) and cyber gun (who again don't just do Airsoft) have permission to use a lot of trades like H&K. TM is a big company in Airsoft, but in the grand scheme of things are tiny, they wouldn't be able to lump the cost of officially paying for the license to use Colt trades, colt is a company who tried to sue Mitsubishi for naming a car 'colt'. It's not just the Chinese who do this.

[Caveira]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

I wonder how many rights TM can officially use, bearing in mind Umarex (who dont just do Airsoft) and cyber gun (who again don't just do Airsoft) have permission to use a lot of trades like H&K. TM is a big company in Airsoft, but in the grand scheme of things are tiny, they wouldn't be able to lump the cost of officially paying for the license to use Colt trades, colt is a company who tried to sue Mitsubishi for naming a car 'colt'. It's not just the Chinese who do this.

I would assume none, considering US customs will stop and destroy any TM guns that are imported with the trades not filled in.

[robobo]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

Serves me right for reading the whole thread and forgetting the original post :P

[Double 0 Jedi]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

I recently brought a clone Blackhawk Serpa holster from one of the china sites, I knew I was buying a clone but I was a little dismayed to see that not only is the holster cloned, but everything is…The packaging, the instructions, even the warranty card has the Blackhawk address on it. I was expecting to receive the holster in bubble wrap inside an envelope sort of thing. I had no idea that what I was buying was actually passing itself of as a Blackhawk product, I thought it was just a copy of the design.

I know that sounds like a contradiction and I did feel a little guilty, as technically there is no difference between stealing the design and stealing the entire package. There was something about seeing the package trying to pass itself off as the genuine article, rather than just sort of saying look I’m a plastic holster with a retention clip a bit like a black hawk that really annoyed me.

For about 2 minutes ! After that it didn’t bother me none too much. Sorry, but I just had to think of the fact that I paid about a third of the price of the real thing, including shipping and at the end of the day, it’s to carry my toy gun with me when I run around the woods at a skirmish once a month. So twelve times odd a year, how much different will the genuine article hold my glock ? I hate to say it but for a lot of people, morals ( in cases like this ) and brand loyalty are only as deep as their bank balance. If something is available that looks almost the same and does the same job cheaper then they will buy it. If the genuine article were to have been cheaper, didn’t have to be as cheap as the clone, I would have got that instead.

Do I feel bad ? Yeah a little, but me not buying one won’t change the fact that they are made. Every one would have to abstain from buying cloned products to stamp out the problem, and that won’t happen.

[tintin102]

Re: Clones Vs Morals

I think it is one of those things that really will depend on what you are like at the time of buying a product, as I reckon most people would buy the real stuff if they had the money. But if at the time you are after let’s say a Blackhawk holster and you didn’t have the money to buy a real one then you would go out and buy a clone.

I also think the biggest point is that because it doesn’t directly affect us in the short term then we won’t really have too much of a problem buying a clone even if it does have a impact in the long term.

Toby