Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

[crasstoe]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

My point exactly Loki. I imagine they would be happy to do it, but as you have said who knows how much that could cost! I look forward to the reviews when these are available, should make for an interesting read.

[loki7491]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

I like the idea of a completely custom, one off , built for me gun but what sort of "custom" are you thinking?

If it is something that requires machining, the cost goes up as the machine needs to be programmed... then if you are only making one item, the cost of NOT mass producing something else compounds the cost.

I think i would like something like a Bushmaster front end but with sections of RIS machined into it rather that attached. If i have to pay somebody to design it, prgramme the machine, manufacture it, test it to destruction and then do me a "good" one, i would have to pay all of those costs myself. If i decide to knock out 1000 of them, each item now only needs to be 1/1000th of the cost plus profit margins.

I would also like to see a 4 position selector similar to the MP5 series. I will have a programmable mosfet if i have to, but being able to switch at the flick of the thumb between three round and full auto is something i would like... i have no idea how much that sort of custom work would cost...

[crasstoe]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

I used the spring as an example, a bad one it would seem. Surely Celcius would be able to accommodate something custom onto a Ghost since they only make 4?

[loki7491]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

I am pretty sure a rewound motor and a modded hop do not count as out of the box, like for like.

I can show you a Ford Fiesta that would rip the arse off of an M5 or an AMG Merc, but as it wasn't bought straight from the dealership i can't sit here and say Ford Fiestas are faster / more powerfull / better accellerating than a BMW M5... A one off modded gun cannot really be classed in the same argument as mass produced out of the factory, which is precicely what this discussion is about.

I could mod a springer pistol to out range your PTW... i would need the strength of a pissed off silver back to cock it and it would probably explode after a couple of shots... but by your rationale my modded springer is now better than a Systema PTW... Cool

[madwelshman]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

springs take seconds to fit matey, regardless of price or platform, its a perk of the ptw/ctw platform

[crasstoe]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

As a complete outsider to this thread (I own neither a PTW nor CTW) but going on what I have read throughout the internet and the experiences I have had borrowing a PTW I would buy a CTW MX3 over a PTW if the reviews are good. As mentioned earlier in here, for those that are not loyal to a brand or don't own a PTW the CTWs are just too cheap to pass on.

The ghost certainly looks interesting. Being on such a limited run must meen room for custom builds if you need something specific, say different springs fitted at the factory on order?

[madwelshman]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

How much is this fabled "2 and a half years in the making" tack hop mod?

Because I know how much a complete cnc machined purpose built one is going to cost from stts, one for a ptw, one for a ctw, and I bet you its going to be half the price of a bedroom bodge i'd bet both my ctw 416 and my ptw 07 on it!

[TOBI]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

You can't have the same performance since my rewound motor is better fact. Your hop hasn't been modded in the same way I've modded my hop so you might have more or less range, although when I took it out the last game I managed to play with my ptw despite heavy wind and .28g bb's I was hitting man sized targets at 70m.

besides give it a few months and you lot will all be sticking Tac's super hop in your gun and be thinking stt....who

[loki7491]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

Sadly, because none of us are privvy to the failure rate figures for either product, this debate will pass back and forth with only snap shots of information and never the whole picture.

I would like to see (in my fantasy dream world) a graph or table comparing the units sold versus the failure rate for each product.

I suspect the total numbers would be similar for three reasons:

1. Systema have sold more units as they have been about longer - so there is more chance of failure
2. Celcius will have suffered teething problems in the early stages - so there is chance of failure

The fundamentals are this though:

* In a skirmish situation, performance differences are negligible. RoF, range, accuracy etc are all in the same area. They will vary from gun to gun, but all in the same bracket.
* Like for like models have CTWs coming in at circa 40 - 50% cheaper than PTWs
* You get a warranty for failed parts with Celcius

Under lab conditions one gun may prove more accurate out of the box, or have an extra few feet of range, but on the skirmish site, those small differences for either gun are hardly noticeable - once the guns hit the field in a head to head, it is down to the guy with the trigger finger.

As we do not play in a lab (and nor can i sample sufficient guns from each brand to give you an out right winner) I can have the same performance as you for considerably less cost. At the end of the day, money is King and airsofters are sick to the back teeth of being ripped off. The Chinese clone market took off for a reason - similar performance for less money.

[TOBI]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

I never said I sent my motor to Tack just that he developed a solution to the problem which is now easily accessible to many infact he even tells you how to do it on his forum any good RC car shop can do it for you and that's including postage, the electronics are fine I know guys with 07 models that have yet to have any trouble with their electronics that's 5 years without a hiccup I think the saying if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.

Al I don't have a problem with celcius but having seen a friend with one of these who's sent his back twice now once for the new gear and the other time because his mosfet board went haywire I don't have confidence in them the only thing their motors have over the systema motors is I can get two for the price of one systema.

[happyal]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

You've missed my point though going on about skoda's if you owned say an M5 which is a comparable car would you go and sell it to buy a skoda which no doubt does the same thing at a fraction of the cost? No you wouldn't unless you had taken one to many blow to the head.

I know what you are trying to say but cars are completely different to air soft guns, you're not going to get a good analogy. The closest thing we are going to get is the what happened to the price of the TM guns after China started making good clones. Yes the TM guns were still better, but not by much, and certainly not worth the massive premium they were asking.

Also the post about abundance of sales threads regarding PTW’s, I was just passing comment, as before I bought my CTW I was looking to buy a PTW, and I’ve noticed that there are a hell of a lot more PTW’s coming for sale recently, and that the price has dropped considerably. I’m not offering any comment on it, I’m just saying that’s it’s happening (on this site at least).

1. change the hop design to something far easier to adjust a variation of the vsr hop would be a good start.
2. rewind and replace the commutators on their motors as standard.
3. replace the stupid commercial spec buffer tube with a cut out for the battery wiring.
4. shorten the fet board even more than the etiny and FCC versions.
5. make their cylinders smaller so you don't have to buy a systema cylinder if you want to use a prime upper.

Agreed with all of these points, it’s hard to say with any certainty if these are not included with the new MX3’s because they aren’t out yet and we are going off only the information that has been released. I will pass on these points to the UK distributer, because what ever you think of Celcuis the UK distributer is great and is listening to what we are saying.

[loki7491]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

Absolutely i would not sell an M5 to buy a VRS, but if i was buying new and could get comparible performance for £15k less, i would be a fool not to.

I am not expecting Systema owners to sell up and switch to CTWs. I am expecting "virgins" to buy the CTW instead of the Systema (for the most part that is - you will of course still get the Systema PTW or nothing crowd... at least until next year when they shut up shop and stop production! - only duty rumour, no hard facts... i don't know their bank manager or anything)

Warranty being rendered pointless just because your gun has not suffered expensive failings seems a bit of a bold statement. I would suggest you have been lucky. All elcto-mechanical devices have a failure rate, it is a fact of life. Yours has lasted well, the next one off the line may have lasted 10 mags or 10 months, the free warranty offered with CTWs is peace of mind for the owners not as blessed as you with a very reliable gun out of the box.

With regard to Tack and Systema owners discovering certain mods, that was never in dispute... if anything, it is kinda the point. These guns are coming pre-modded... with the warranty to boot! Your £80 motor repair would have cost you at worst £50 assuming you paid £25 each way for postage or at best a couple of quid if you lived near enough to drop the gun off and collect it in person.

PTWs are great bits of kit. That fact is not in dispute.

A PTW with factory fitted mods and a warranty, for less money is an even better deal though and one i am sure you would jump on (assuming you were going to buy another gun anyway)

The trade off for the price difference is the name, a few minor differences and the fact that Systema and their loyal customers have done most of the research and development on behalf of Celcius and thus kept the production costs down. (for which i thank you all )

[TOBI]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

Many sound points there TOBI, but i think you may be missing the main one Celcius are trying to get across.

In business and customerterms, Systema are the enemy. If they can can offer a cun with more toys, gadgets and gizmos on, for less price, the customer base will sway over time towards the CTWs. I imagine they have a three year model for this, as is common in business.

I have read contradicting things about the contacts, some say silver, some say gold. I personally hope it is silver. Silver is the best electrical conductor bar none, and is cheaper than gold... gold is excellent, but purely a gimick in terms of sales patter.

I own a MX2 and a MX2-TA. I love them both, but i will be watching these with interest as i have no aversion to adding another to my wall.

If you told me 20 years ago Skoda would be making decent cars i would have laughed at you. After a rough time of it and a few redesigns, they are taking a decent portion of the performance car market. The Octavia RS is definitely a contender. Within a short while, i believe this is the way Celcius will go. At the moment they are largely an unknown and in the same way the Octavia was when iwas first released, seen by many as a risky option as previous attemps have been horrific failures, but these new guns have been based on your tried and tested Systema PTW with some improvements on that.

You've missed my point though going on about skoda's if you owned say an M5 which is a comparable car would you go and sell it to buy a skoda which no doubt does the same thing at a fraction of the cost? No you wouldn't unless you had taken one to many blow to the head.

Also the ghost is pointless increasing the trigger response by replacing the contacts with gold is pointless since you don't improve the skill of the end user.

What Improvements though? the thicker roller packing that they put in the hops wasn't found by them it was systema owners, the rewinding and replacement of motor components was done by Tack, the shortening of the fet board was done successfully by TacK, you still get guns failing under the warranty the only difference so far is that all of the components on the gun fail but you get them replaced for free I don't see this as better but more as a PITA, my ptw hasn't skipped a beat I've not had any issues with anything other than the motor which got repaired for £80, my electronics have never faltered nor has my gearbox, so that renders any warranty as moot, in my eyes celcius have done sweet FA. so in conclusion if celcius want to beat systema they need to.

1. change the hop design to something far easier to adjust a variation of the vsr hop would be a good start.
2. rewind and replace the commutators on their motors as standard.
3. replace the stupid commercial spec buffer tube with a cut out for the battery wiring.
4. shorten the fet board even more than the etiny and FCC versions.
5. make their cylinders smaller so you don't have to buy a systema cylinder if you want to use a prime upper.

[loki7491]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

Many sound points there TOBI, but i think you may be missing the main one Celcius are trying to get across.

In business and customerterms, Systema are the enemy. If they can can offer a cun with more toys, gadgets and gizmos on, for less price, the customer base will sway over time towards the CTWs. I imagine they have a three year model for this, as is common in business.

I have read contradicting things about the contacts, some say silver, some say gold. I personally hope it is silver. Silver is the best electrical conductor bar none, and is cheaper than gold... gold is excellent, but purely a gimick in terms of sales patter.

I own a MX2 and a MX2-TA. I love them both, but i will be watching these with interest as i have no aversion to adding another to my wall.

If you told me 20 years ago Skoda would be making decent cars i would have laughed at you. After a rough time of it and a few redesigns, they are taking a decent portion of the performance car market. The Octavia RS is definitely a contender. Within a short while, i believe this is the way Celcius will go. At the moment they are largely an unknown and in the same way the Octavia was when iwas first released, seen by many as a risky option as previous attemps have been horrific failures, but these new guns have been based on your tried and tested Systema PTW with some improvements on that.

[TOBI]

Re: Celcius MX3 / Team Alpha 2 / HK416 TA 2 / CTW Ghost

If you want to repair the motors then I'm not being funny go to any place that deals with remote control cars and ask them to replace the commutator and the bushes and rewind it, this saves you having to replace the bloody thing also the hop, my new 2012 hop is fine without any hop modification it's hitting man sized targets at 70m if I need to hit someone further away then guess what? I get closer.If they really want to make it better then the systema then why haven't they altered the hop design? surely changing it to a type which can be adjusted through the ejection port would be better than a grub screw.


One thing I don't see them doing is shortening the fet board or even trying to shrink it down to the point were it's even smaller than the FCC or Etiny versions and having this as a standard feature, the stock tube, why is there still a bloody commercial spec tube? surely if this is a training weapon then it should have a mil spec tube?. Also I see the gold contacts as a gimmick, I can tap out full auto on my ptw albeit a slow full auto, by increasing the sensitivity you don't gain any real significance since the gains are going to be negligible and for what a doubled cost.

As to the electronics how many owners have had there electronics burn out didn't CK say that his electronics were fried? I don't think they're any better since the systema ones have worked just fine. I don't see how they can improve on something which already works quite well

Also the first reply was going on about an abundance of sales threads regarding systema's because of this. really? so what your saying is when the nissan gt-r came out every ferrari and porsche owner stuck their car up for sale because something cheaper came along that did the same thing? No I'm not going to stick mine up because last time I checked it worked and it worked well.