Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

[seansamurai1]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

@Dave, thanks for the info, some interesting stuff.

I will say though and not directed at anyone, M4 receivers are made from Ally, normal ones, aftermarket ones and bespoke ones.
Ally is not a hugely expensive material anymore (price varies with quality)as it fell off the exotic materials list. When treated a certain way ie machined with the grain and heat treated it becomes very strong, if it wasn't they wouldnt make things like engine blocks, air frames, bikes, cars, ships etc out of it. Downside with treated aluminium is it becomes stiff which is good in one aspect but in another means under high loading it fatigues nearly twice as fast as say 4030 chrom-mo steel.

[WTP_Trust_ME]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

@BEN - 4140 is actually designed for ease of machining - small chips, relatively high machinability etc. Using Carbide tools your machining cost wont be too high, the big difference between 4140 St and 7076 Al is the price of the material - 7076 (being aluminium) will be significantly more. Plus aluminium is sticky, soft, flexible, and welds to tools very easily, 4140 breaks in small chips, and machines easily (for a steel) with very little welding.

@SeanSamurai - Diamond tips are primarily for machining ceramics/carbides - they dont like softer materials (relative to ceramics and carbides steel is butter).

Whilst I dont own a PTW or a TM Recoil I'm very interested in the concept of machining something like this, and how much it would cost to do it in one shot from a lump of ally

Wrong wrong wrong.

For starters you're really not going to find 4140 in the UK without going to some of our aerospace material suppliers, where you'll pay a premium for the certification. Best bet is a nice alloy steel like EN8 (080M40).

7075 is one of the nicest cutting aluminiums I've had the pleasure of cutting, it is not sticky, nor soft, nor flexible, and the cold welding to the tool which you speak of is only an issue where cutting fluid isn't used, and there are even some dry cutting tools for aluminium coming into the market now as well.

From what you say it seems you have little or no experience in a proper engineering workshop, either that or you're still using prehistoric machines, tools and techniques.

Diamond inserts are used in the following sectors: Superfinishing of non-ferrous materials (aluminium, copper, brass and bronze alloys), hard turning (above 45-50 HRc) of steels, high speed machining of super-alloys (inconel, hastalloy etc.) and bastard marstenetic stainless steels.

In short, it would be possible to make this part from solid steel, however, the cost will be an increased cycle time, increased tooling cost and therefore increased total cost. You don't need steel for this part, a decent quality (6000 or 7000 series) aluminium will be MORE than strong enough and will carry a significant weight saving.

EDIT: @seansamurai if you buy aluminium in a t6 state it will not age further and become brittle like you are suggesting, in things like aeroplanes these parts do have a shelf life, but for what is essentially a toy gun, you shouldn't worry about it.

[M4UK]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

OK guys, just registered and feel I should chime in here.

TOBI, all my guns are very real, although a number of my competitors wish they were not. There are a few clowns out there that prefer to believe that we make all this up.

I have an engineering background and grew up making guns with my father, I also have done roughly 25 years of CAD design as well as being a technical assistant for Alias Wavefront/ Silicon Graphics many moons ago. My other company visualises and aids in product design for some of the worlds largest manufacturers including BAE Systems, Ford, BOSE and a whole load more.
So we do have a bit of knowledge in this arena.

Right now we make the most accurate .22LR AR15 in the country and it will shoot a single hole at 50yards and 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch group at 100yards, not bad for a little Semi Auto rimfire.
We have guys using them at national comp level and they are very expensive, but then quality will always come at a price.
I make no excuses for the price, its taken an immense amount of work to create this rifle and ongoing development will only see it get better.
Ask Bill from 22 Shotter / Raider what he thinks of the 22 Raven as he shot one a few weeks back.
Our Straight Pull and Semi Auto 223/5.56mm rifles will shoot sub MOA all day long.
We offer barrels in 4140 Chrome Moly or 416R Stainless.

This concept is to offer a training version of our select fire M4 rifle made from the same materials, 7075T6 Ally, with the same finish, Type 3 Hard Coat Black. All made to milspecs just like our real guns.

[Hunter512]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

Erm i know we're not supposed to mention the name but if you are who I "think" you are I'd be up for a traded lower reciever.......

[seansamurai1]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

Wrong wrong wrong.

For starters you're really not going to find 4140 in the UK without going to some of our aerospace material suppliers, where you'll pay a premium for the certification. Best bet is a nice alloy steel like EN8 (080M40).

7075 is one of the nicest cutting aluminiums I've had the pleasure of cutting, it is not sticky, nor soft, nor flexible, and the cold welding to the tool which you speak of is only an issue where cutting fluid isn't used, and there are even some dry cutting tools for aluminium coming into the market now as well.

From what you say it seems you have little or no experience in a proper engineering workshop, either that or you're still using prehistoric machines, tools and techniques.

Diamond inserts are used in the following sectors: Superfinishing of non-ferrous materials (aluminium, copper, brass and bronze alloys), hard turning (above 45-50 HRc) of steels, high speed machining of super-alloys (inconel, hastalloy etc.) and bastard marstenetic stainless steels.

In short, it would be possible to make this part from solid steel, however, the cost will be an increased cycle time, increased tooling cost and therefore increased total cost. You don't need steel for this part, a decent quality (6000 or 7000 series) aluminium will be MORE than strong enough and will carry a significant weight saving.

EDIT: @seansamurai if you buy aluminium in a t6 state it will not age further and become brittle like you are suggesting, in things like aeroplanes these parts do have a shelf life, but for what is essentially a toy gun, you shouldn't worry about it.

Some fantastic information there bud.

However, never once did I say T6 becomes brittle, like any metals/alloys it will fatigue under constant loading/unloading, temperature deviation and shock loading, aluminium is far more susceptible to this due to its nature.
T6 can also be further heat treated to gain extra strength but with the extra rigidity comes higher fatigue rates. Most common fault with aircraft is airframe fatigue.

[Black Templar]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

I really have no idea who you are, not a scooby unless your the bearded Costa bloke, which I doubt. In view of the verbal scuffling, I have had a talk with myself and we all feel it would be for the best to make a TM one for me and I'll be the fine chap who reviews it.
No need for thanks, I'm just that kind of a chap. Far too 'people' for my own good.

Still interested when all the squabbles have finished1

[B.E.N.]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

It appears the best man to answer the technical questions has arrived, posted and probably seen what he needs to see!

Interesting points about the materials, as I mentioned, I'm going from a limited knowledge of engineering and will happily listen to somebody who has more experience on the matter...

[seansamurai1]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

Well I'd say make it from what he knows best, good enough for real steel, it's good enough for a toy.

[M4UK]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

Thanks Ben.

We have completed modeling of the upper receiver for PTW and will run a prototype soon.

[loki7491]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

M4UK

Is the bulk of the cost in the material or the setting up of the machine?

I would like a mag housing with a built in grip.

If the bulk of the cost is in the materials then i'd be happy to chat in private about the cost of doing what i envisage. If the bulk of the cost lays within the programming of the machine (lost production time on your main product etc i guess) then i may just have to keep on dreaming!

[WTP_Trust_ME]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

Didn't mean to sound like an arse, but you can't just throw info around without any experience to back it up. Just gets my back up.

I'm sure any company that can deal with making real steel can deal with making 'toy' guns. For me, that would never be a concern. my only concern would be the design and they seem to have that in hand .

[TK8456]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

Got to say, I'm loving those drawings!
Good work

Can you add something to make opening the receiver a little easier?
Most of us undo the retaining pin, put the gun on your knee, then slap the buffer tube.
Over time this causes breakages.
An easier way to pry them apart, a surface maybe, would help lots....?

[Decho]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

I'd certainly be interested in one for a TM recoil, I'd in fact buy a TM recoil so I could get such a receiver.

[M4UK]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

Got to say, I'm loving those drawings!
Good work

Can you add something to make opening the receiver a little easier?
Most of us undo the retaining pin, put the gun on your knee, then slap the buffer tube.
Over time this causes breakages.
An easier way to pry them apart, a surface maybe, would help lots....?

I think the problem with access is due to the finish and machining of the airsoft receivers, we don't have any problems with fit at all. Just push out the Takedown and the upper will hinge away from the lower under its own weight, end of story. That will not change on our airsoft version.

[M4UK]

Re: Bespoke metal receivers PTW/TM Recoil

M4UK

Is the bulk of the cost in the material or the setting up of the machine?

I would like a mag housing with a built in grip.

If the bulk of the cost is in the materials then i'd be happy to chat in private about the cost of doing what i envisage. If the bulk of the cost lays within the programming of the machine (lost production time on your main product etc i guess) then i may just have to keep on dreaming!

Its not practical to make a one off CNC'd part, unless you are happy to pay upwards of £500 for design/machining of a lower with a min cost of anodising at £95, all plus VAT. Our magwells are all wire edm'd and that work has to go out, a one off for that would be £125 alone.

While on the subject of magwells, I noticed on the Systema Challenge kit I have here that the interior of the magwell is very rough, ours are very smooth and flared internally for easier mag changes.

Are all PTW lowers the same, with bad machining/ casting and rough surfaces in the magwell area?