is this a good next GBBR?

[messy]

hello,

I bought my first GBBR not so long ago - a G&G m4 raider.

While I like it, the fact that I cant get a npas for it is its death nail (doesnt seem to like lower powered gas's) however having used it has confirmed gas rifles are the way forward for me so im looking at its replacement.

Whilst im no adverse to upgrading parts myself I really want something that I can just use out of the box with high reliability. With that in mind iv been looking at RA-tech custom works.

http://en.ratech.com.tw/product/html...work_we020.php

does that look like a good way to go? from what i can tell WE gbbrs are generally quite good and those upgrades should make it nice and sturdy right? Could i do better for £400 (looking mainly at m4's although i was strongly tempted by the l85! but a bit too expensive).

[loki7491]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

In a word - YES.

Standard WE is good but some of the internals are made of inferior materials and are prone to what i would consider premature failure.

RATech upgrades are the future.

[Tariq182]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

Yeah.
I have the 416 with the same upgrades.
Beast of a gun and haven't had any problems with it. Easy to strip and maintain.
Performs brilliantly. Only thing you need to do is bed the hop rubber in as it's a bit all over the place for the first 100 shots or so.

[tisane]

As above, buy it.

I have exactly the same spec M4 as that one, standard it will eventually fail, it could be in 500 rounds it could be in 10k rounds but it will fail.

The RA-tech version will go like a steam train all day every day.

And it has NPAS

[messy]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

sweet

[PureSilver]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

I'd be a bit more cautious than the above endorsements. My personal experience with the WE platform is of low-quality internal components (particularly very soft pot alloy construction) and low-grade finishing on most parts. Many people who upgrade them incompletely with steel internals find that the steel parts simply accelerate the destruction of the non-steel parts, and therefore you need to either change all the parts for steel (expensive in the short term, cheap in the long term) or keep replacing the internals with pot-metal parts (cheap in the short term, expensive in the long term). The WE Open Bolt system is a bit of a mixed bag in that it's not really the best at anything - KWA's LM4 is a much newer and more efficient system, and WA M4s have much better aftermarket parts support and magazines (which are critical for GBBRs), including absolutely brilliant ProWin V2 regular magazines and EB-Tech CO₂ magazines. Both of those other systems have their downsides - KWA are hamstrung by a lack of aftermarket parts, and WAs by high upfront costs - but the KWA LM4 is a better rifle than the WE out of the box, and with decent parts you can build a better rifle out of a WA than you could out of a WE.

My other concern is that GBBRs have approximately no second-hand value whatsoever, so you can buy a hell of a lot of GBBR second-hand for not very much money. For example, a nearly-new, unskirmished WE M4 CQBR not particularly different to the one RA-Tech take to upgrade is available on this very forum for £150; here's another one for £180, when according to this one (also for sale) they are £400 new. There are Inokatsus on this forum that you could probably persuade the seller to part with for less than £400, and those have full trademarks, full-steel internals as factory, and forged aluminium bodies - all of the things that it will be very expensive or impossible to put on the WE.

Personally, for £400 I would be looking for a G&P WOC-X, which came from the factory with fully steel internals, and some magazines to go with it. They're a lot less common in the classifieds than the WEs (make of that what you will) but they turn up from time to time. Here was a WOC upgraded with full steel internals for £350; these two were at £320 each. Even this Inokatsu, which has full steel internals from the factory, comes with an RA-Tech bolt with NPAS and a forged body with licensed trademarks (and must have cost £1k+ when new) is at £500 with four magazines - you should be able to sell the magazines if you don't like them and recoup £100 without too much difficulty.

The basic truths are these - GBBRs don't hold their value, so it's smarter to buy them second-hand if they're in good condition. If you're going to buy a heavily upgraded rifle, why start with a WE, which will leave its bargain-basement origins (no-trades receiver and the like) on display unless you sink £500 into a replacement body? If you're going to sink big money into a platform, why pick one with only one choice of magazines - which aren't that good? I'm biased - the WA system has always worked well for me, though it can be finicky if maltreated - but those questions just don't have ready answers.

[tisane]

You talk of cheap pot metal internals, and yes the internals of a STANDARD WE rifle can be very hit and miss, RA-tech all steel internals as linked above leave nothing left (maybe the BCG over time) pot metal wise to be destroyed as the trigger set, the part that is the biggest issue is upgraded to entirely CNC steel.

Magazines, so you only have the choice of WEs magazines, the V2 mags are by far superior to the V1 in the leak department and that was the only downfall of WE OB and CB magazines and I believe new WE guns now ship with new V2 mags.

Body wise ok no trades, I see that as a blank canvas, how many other guns out there either have no or incorrect trades?
And if your bothered by trades there is a Colt marked body, I may be wrong but I believe its made by WE and is nowhere near £500.

[loki7491]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

I'm with tisane on this.

I would rather have a cheaper gun with no trades or crappy trades than pay a premium purely for trade marks, which if you are any good nobody should see!

It is a good point however that second hand ones are cheap and it is worth weighing up the cost of a second hand one with after market upgrades verses the cost of a new one.

I have just spent £109 on a RATech trigger set (thanks Iain ) so if you bout a gun for £150 you are still only looking at £260 for a rifle that will last the test of time. WE aslo do CO2 mags (which i have on order) but am led to believe they very good.

It is the same as any other gun purchase though... you need to temper your purchase against your budget and plan for the future. If you can get a second hand one with the RATech upgrades already fitted then i think you are onto a winner.

I have no experience with the other GBBRs mentioned so my point of view is somewhat flawed and blinkered in terms of comparison, but i am not a mug either and know what i like.

[Boo-Sabum Ben]

I can't click on the link at the moment, but if its the WE rifle with all of the RA Tech upgrades already put in, you're onto a winner.

I've jut made the jump, mine is a we that RA tech have put their trigger assembly, barrel, spring, and NPAS and aluminium bolt into. Absolutely love it, it's worked nearly flawlessly so far (few niggles that need to be worn in, like stuff mag lips, hop).

I have seen people with WE guns that aren't happy with them, and some that are. But I've yet to see someone who is 100% happy with their G&P. they do require a lot of work.

If you want to jump straight in, with a few bits to sort out, and have a good bit of fun, then a RATech upgraded WE is the way to go I say!

[Boo-Sabum Ben]

Worth considering on the 2nd hand viewpoint!

Gas weapons are the most risky but in the 2nd hand market. Purely because there are more moving, working internals, that are not always in great supply.

I have bought a few gas weapons, that are so used, that internal parts, springs, knockers, sears, are so worn out from use, I saved no money buying 2nd hand.

Rifles will tend to have less wear than pistols and SMGs, but an inspection before you pay out is a very important thing to consider with gas guns. An upper receiver, or BCG could be ruined by the previous owner not doing the right maintenance, or doing a mod wrong.

[tisane]

I was going to add that part.

If your considering an "RA-tech" pre upgraded M4 consider who has installed the upgrades and ironed out all of the creases.
If its a good shop that's installed all the upgrades like an up and coming online store in the WE spares market then great, as the owner really knows his stuff and the gun will run sweet.
The same goes for RA-tech themselves.

But be wary of anyone that has "upgraded" their gun with the steel bits and is suddenly selling it because RA-tech parts are "crap" or in English the user didn't realise that it may take some minor fitting or filing to get things to work well, or has simply lost that small spring that makes the entire gun run at all.

Oh and it's TSC that make the traded receiver, knew I'd seen it, it's a MK 18 MOD upper and lower CNC 7075 aluminium for $345 in stock with one of the more well known HK retailers.

[Strebor_7]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

I've owned a few gas riffles now and I'm currently running a G&P WOC, I first started with WE's and had a closed bolt 416, open bolt pdw, open bolt m4, and a open bolt scar! All were standred except I fitted the ra-tech npas and a ra-tech hop rubber in the pdw and scar. Only issues I ever had we're they tend to be a little more fussy with ammo, and the gen 1 mags were pretty annoying but easily fixed, and even though the gen 1 mags are a pain sometimes, I found them easier to fix than my G&P gas mags.

I'm a great believer in if it ain't broke don't fix it! My PDW, when I had it ran perfect in cqb with no upgreads except the npas and hop rubber. The inturnals held strong and not a single thing broke, I had it for about a year and sadly sold it still fully working!

The woc I run now has had more issues in the 6 months that I've had it, than any we I've owned, however I have changed so much on it there barely any original parts, but that what I wanted to do with it! Now I know how every part works and what each part does! A good way to learn is by upgrading!

All in all I've never been disappointed with any we I've owned just disappointed with the aftermarket external parts, ie I like the vltor reciever, which my woc now has.

Anyway, hope this helps, and in my opinion it wouldn't be a bad choice!

[PureSilver]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

I just want to preface this by saying that I'm not WE-phobic or anything, I just want to make sure messy hears more than one side of the argument. There's no doubt that WE have improved greatly as a RIF maker (ask anyone that bought any of their early Hi-Capas) and I don't doubt that, bar G&G, they make the best affordable GBBRs. However, £400 is not 'affordable' compared to a G&G at £150 - it's not 'high-end' but it's competing with G&Ps that are objectively much better made from the factory, as opposed to upgraded in the aftermarket. I'm not saying "don't buy one", but I am saying "consider your options carefully first".

You talk of cheap pot metal internals, and yes the internals of a STANDARD WE rifle can be very hit and miss, RA-tech all steel internals as linked above leave nothing left (maybe the BCG over time) pot metal wise to be destroyed as the trigger set, the part that is the biggest issue is upgraded to entirely CNC steel.

Absolutely I'm talking about the insides of a standard WE rifle having cheap pot metal internals. Almost all of the RA-Tech Custom (as linked above) is still WE parts - it retains the original hop-up unit, the entire bolt carrier group (including the bolt and most of the nozzle assembly, two parts that are critically important to the gun's function), the bolt stop - all sorts. The Custom doesn't even have the majority of the parts RA-Tech make for the WE M4 - no steel front set, no steel bolt stop, no steel bolt carrier, no steel nozzle guide, no steel trigger box and no steel nozzle - let alone leaving "nothing left [...] pot metal wise". Plus, not to knock RA-Tech unnecessarily, but their steel is very soft - certainly inferior to G&P's stuff, let alone PRIME or Viper et al.

Magazines, so you only have the choice of WEs magazines, the V2 mags are by far superior to the V1 in the leak department and that was the only downfall of WE OB and CB magazines and I believe new WE guns now ship with new V2 mags.

I've not had much experience with the V2s - the V1s are pretty dreadful, but if you say they're better, good! I'm willing to bet they're nowhere near as nice as ProWins, but I bet they aren't nearly as expensive either. But there's no getting away from the fact that WA guns have the choice of G&P, Bomber, ProWin, Viper, EB-Tech and WA magazines and with WE it's WE or nothing, AFAIK.

Body wise ok no trades, I see that as a blank canvas, how many other guns out there either have no or incorrect trades?

Plenty of nasty, bargain-basement clone guns don't have trademarks. It's pretty rare to find a £400 gun (at least in my experience) with no trades. I'm not saying that they're a total necessity for everyone, but I personally wouldn't spend £100 on a gun with no trades, let alone £400; it's supposed to be a replica weapon, not something attached to an arcade machine. Saying that a traded receiver from TSC is $345 is a bit pointless when you could buy a gun that came with a nice receiver in the first place for considerably less money. At that point, it's not a budget gun any more and you're competing price-wise with much nicer guns.

If your considering an "RA-tech" pre upgraded M4 consider who has installed the upgrades and ironed out all of the creases.

That's definitely as true of this gun as any other airsoft gun, maybe even more so since GBBRs are less well understood and therefore sometimes the people working on them don't know as much about them as they should. You might be better off buying a pre-upgraded gun, or buying a bone-stock gun and fitting the upgrades yourself.

[messy]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

i couldnt care less about trademarks.

i went specifically for a WE because research seemed to suggest that kwa were very sturdy out of the box but weren't quite as much fun (less noise/recoil i guess that means) as the other brands. This will be far and away the most expensive gun iv bought so it cant lack in fun :P

i also heard that the WA and G&P systems were very similar and crap - lots of problems etc and if they were going to be of use at all would require alot of work.

also heard that parts market for WE's was very good AND if one shinny day i was able to afford a l85 i wouldn't have to buy new mags which is a bonus.

keeping an open mind i just looked at ra-tech again to see what they did in way of WA stuff and found nothing which pretty much puts them out of the running for that reason alone.

lastly - i considered second hand, and although the one time iv done it in the past it turned out ok - its still essentially a gamble and one im not comfortable doing again - and thats just on the "will it turn up" side, let alone the "what in gods name have the done to the poor thing in the name of upgrading". - Viewing it before hand wouldnt help as i wouldnt have a clue what to look for unless pieces were literally hanging off.


think ill just go for the RA-tech WE :D

[Boo-Sabum Ben]

Re: is this a good next GBBR?

PM Me and Ill help you on the RA Tech/ WE front