What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

[blobface]

Before anyone flames me, I am a UKARA member, but I was thinking, especially with what some sites charge for membership as well as annual renewal fees, what's to stop someone from buying a gun for a friend who goes to the same site and is a frequent skirmisher? According to UKARA's website, "gifts" are perfectly fine, even to a non-skirmisher.

I am under 18, can my parents buy me a RiF?
Not unless they are members of one the approved purchasing groups, it would appear that there is no problem of a gift from an eligible purchaser to a minor.

So if it's even okay for a UKARA parent to buy their 12 year old kid RIFs even if they don't participate in skirmishes, is there anything wrong with a skirmisher buying for another skirmisher who isn't willing to be a UKARA member?

[Hawk]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Hmmm. Blob, I've thought this myself a few times.
Lets see what others say, but looking at it I would say yes.
The only thing is, it would have to be a gift. No exchange of money

[Beef]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Nothing stopping your friend buying you a RIF, It happens alot. Lets not turn it into a big deal

[cannon_fodder]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

This is simple, If you are buying for a friend who can't avail himself of the skirmishers defense, for example a collector, then its not a good idea

If you are buying for a over 18 friend who plays but cant get UKARA because they play different sites (or cant be bothered ) then its OK.

I buy RIFs all the time for my friends, usually because I have to downgrade or service them before they can use it any way. All of them have let their UKARA lapse for various reasons but I happy to resale to them because one glance at their Facebook page photos would convince any one that they are both over 18 and are regular skirmishers.
It doesn't have to be gifted if you believe they have a defence

[magslap]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

if the non ukara freind is reguarly playing and can afford guns.......then why not membership?a rif is (for sake of argument) about £200....cant see a site charging anywhere near that for membership.how much is the site in question charging.?
but also if they are regular,why not just keep a diary of dates played,some places can contact the sites theyve played at.

[bob86]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

short answer is nothing. as you buying it from the shop is all well and good. but then it is you that is at risk of repurcussions when you come to selling it on. as you are then the person that needs to make sure thatl the requirements of the vcra are fulfilled, when selling it to the next person. same as all selling that is done on here in the classifieds

if you choose to sell it to someone that isnt a skirmisher, then you are the one breaking the law and taking all the risks, its that simple

[Andrew March]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

You would only be able to receive the RIF as a gift, the very first section of the VCRA clearly states:

Paragraph 4 makes it an offence to manufacture, import or sell realistic
imitation firearms. It also makes it an offence to modify an imitation firearm to
make it realistic. Sub-paragraph 7 provides that imported realistic imitation
firearms will be liable to forfeiture under customs and excise controls.

It is our responsibility as Airsofters to abide by the laws, so that we can continue to enjoy the game we love. If the law gets broken they will change it and we could simply lose the right to play completely and i don't know about you but I don't fancy hopping on a ferry every two weeks to play in France. Once a year no problem but every two weeks would soon put a dent in the most hardened players wallet!

[Fil]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

You would only be able to receive the RIF as a gift, the very first section of the VCRA clearly states:

Paragraph 4 makes it an offence to manufacture, import or sell realistic
imitation firearms. It also makes it an offence to modify an imitation firearm to
make it realistic. Sub-paragraph 7 provides that imported realistic imitation
firearms will be liable to forfeiture under customs and excise controls.

Not sure that's strictly relevant in this case. If someone hands you money to buy something for them then you're buying it on their behalf. You're not buying it and then subsequently selling it to them.

[Andrew March]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Yes you are, money has been exchanged it is classed as a purchase on behalf of someone without defence. I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't base my defence on 'I gave him the money before he bought the gun your honour!'

You are asking someone to obtain something by deception which isn't a very good way opf preserving our sport is it.

[1st commando]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

I will just point something out here .

If the person buying the RIF sell it to a legitimate skirmisher that is fine , Regardless of whether they have UKARA !

UKARA isn't the be all and end all ,it just helps retailer to check buyers have defence .

I have not had UKARA memberships for several years but still have defence as a legitimate skirmisher and it would be very easy for me to prove it.

Not that i'm opposed to ukara , I just haven't needed it as i've always found my site memberships or skirmish credentials to be more than adequate.

So in the scenario of the OP,

UKARA member A buys a RIF from a UKARA retailer = Legal

UKARA member A then sells the RIF to a NON ukara member B who is a legitimate skirmisher = still legal

It's not deception it's just the retailer has used a different method of verification when selling to Member A than Member A uses when selling to non member B

[Hawk]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

If you have read the laws, it clearly states NO EXCHANGE OF MONEY
it can only be gifted, if you're so genorus

[Andrew March]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Totally but the issue here isn't whether someone has a defence it is whether you can buy a RIF for someone who doesn't have a defence if they give you the money for it. There are several ways of legityimately buying a RIF, UKARA is the one that seems easiest but was really only setup to protect the retailers, a skirmish diary signed by the sites you visit is another or simply asking the retailer to contact your site to confirm you are a regular player is another.

There really is no point in trying to get around the law by looking for loopholes in the way you exchange money, because as has already been said an exchange of money implies a purchase and that is what the law would use against you and I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't want my ability to purchase RIF's jeopardised by buying a 'mate' a RIF when he has no right to purchase one, just get them to play and have the defence themselves, job done, no harm.

I will just point something out here .

If the person buying the RIF sell it to a legitimate skirmisher that is fine , Regardless of whether they have UKARA !

UKARA isn't the be all and end all ,it just helps retailer to check buyers have defence .

I have not had UKARA memberships for several years but still have defence as a legitimate skirmisher and it would be very easy for me to prove it.

Not that i'm opposed to ukara , I just haven't needed it as i've always found my site memberships or skirmish credentials to be more than adequate

[1st commando]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

In the case of someone getting a RIF when they are not entitled , they should quite simply be reported . Grey areas like gifting are just plain dangerous for airsoft

[Sir Stephen]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

ANYBODY can GIFT ANYBODY ANYTHING. dosnt matter how he got the RIF/IF/nerf gun, if a person wants to GIFT it, he can gift it. GIFTing has no age restrictions.

NOW IF YOUR OVER 18

if he wants to SELL anything then there are restrictions.

to sell a RIF, the seller needs to ensure that you have a reason to have it, so he is defended form the VCRA.

as you have said in your example, you skirmish with him all the time, he knows your not going to rob a bank, that is a defence form the VCRA, he can SELL you a RIF


to sell an IF, you only have to be over 18.


so to sum up

GIFTing: go nuts, anything to anyone, just NO MONEY INVOLVED!!
SELLing RIF: over 18, DEFENCE
SELLing IF: OVER 18

[Fil]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

If you have read the laws, it clearly states NO EXCHANGE OF MONEY

Which law says this and where?

If we're going by the logic that giving someone money to buy something on your behalf constitutes a sale then anyone who's ever been given money to buy somebody something from a bar in a pub has committed the offence of selling alcohol without a license. It would also have made the inclusion of the offence of buying alcohol on behalf of someone under 18 into UK law in 2000 and the more recent inclusion of the offence of buying tobacco on behalf of someone under 18 into Scottish law completely unnecessary as those offences would already be covered by the pre-existing offences of selling to someone under 18.

It seems pretty clear that UK law already recognises that person A giving money to person B to buy something from retailer C on their behalf does not constitute a sale between persons A and B. And is a different act to person B buying something from retailer C for their own purposes and then choosing to sell it onto person A. Why should the VCRA be any different? The fact that an additional offence of fraud/obtaining by deception may be committed by the buyer is a separate issue.