What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

[Andrew March]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Please mind the gap between the google lawyer and the barrister!

[cannon_fodder]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

if the non ukara freind is reguarly playing and can afford guns.......then why not membership?a rif is (for sake of argument) about £200....cant see a site charging anywhere near that for membership.how much is the site in question charging.?
but also if they are regular,why not just keep a diary of dates played,some places can contact the sites theyve played at.

Because if you play at 3+ different sites and only play 6 games a year that works out as twice a year at each site. Its more than enough games to be a "regular skirmisher" but not quite enough for UKARA.
One guy ,who has played for years, only made 3 games this year due to work comitments and injury, all at different sites so his UKARA lapsed . Not every player is lucky enough to play every single week

If you know of a retailer who will ring 3 different sites to check the dates in a diary to check a defense please PM me.





I cant believe this thread has degenerated into a mud slinging troll fest

AS the OP stated:

Friend who is over 18 AND a regular skirmisher needs gun but has no UKARA
Finds gun online but shop INSISTS on UKARA or will 2-tone
You use your UKARA to purchase the gun he wants in your name.
You check your diary to make sure friend has played enough games in the last 12 months then sell him the gun at the online price
If this is illegal then how is it any different to the sales section on this forum ??

If anyone thinks this is illegal and I have to gift the gun to a friend without UKARA then does that mean UKARA is compulsory?

[magslap]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

The point is that Fil's (and others like me) "interpretation" is based on the way the VCRA is WRITTEN. The others are based on word-of-mouth interpretations that are flawed.
Far from Fil's interpretation being "dangerous" to airsoft, the misinterpretation of others is legally dangerous for not just the sport, but those people themselves.

the real problem/danger.....is too many people looking for ways around the law.
i stick to my basic guidlines,dont sell a rif to anyone under 18,i will only sell to over 18 with a ukara number.
that way i know im safe.if a mate wants a gun and doesnt have a ukara or doesnt skirmish,then they can get in the bloody car with me and start going,then they can buy one themselves.
airsoft is an expensive hobby,this has been mentioned a lot of times,im not rich,but if to stay legal means having to pay 50-70 quid a year to have my number on the ukara database then so be it.......that or i find another hobby.
lets not also remember that membership to most clubs ALSO reduces the green fee +some offer discounts on bb's and other expendables. so when you pay membership,your not just paying to get a number,there are many other things too.
i know some people dont play at the same site all the time......but thats their choice,i have to travel quite a distance to get to my regular site....again,its part and parcel of the hobby.you can all say this that and the other about the law...and the vcra,but thats all it is...words,if you want to do somthing that your unsure of (unsure to the point of having to ask on a public forum) then there must be somthing in the back of your mind telling you that it "could" be risky or looked down upon........so at the end of the day,you have to make a personnal decision as to whether you want to take that risk,and if you do....then you take whatever flak is associated with that risk.

[BAMF]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

The point is that Fil's (and others, like me) "interpretation" is based on the way the VCRA is WRITTEN. The others are based on word-of-mouth interpretations that are flawed.
Far from Fil's interpretation being "dangerous" to airsoft, the misinterpretation of others is legally dangerous for not just the sport, but those people themselves.

Here's a case in point.

My original quote has been taken out of all context and all the implied humour is drained from it. The way you have misquoted me makes me sound angry and harsh (Which I can be, but I wasn't being).

I've been quoted, yet nowhere have I made reference to dangerous interpretations of the VCRA, nor do I make reference to word of mouth?

What is legally dangerous, is that people are quoting UK legislation verbatim, almost "Parrot-fashion" one might say, as though it were copied directly from a website, without substantiating or validating their claims. Fil has given a small insight into his ability to interpret and apply UK law, as have I.

I wonder sir, can you?

Edit: May I also suggest the correct use of punctuation, as it looks as though you are implying that Fil and you are the same person? I added one for you, so you can see how things may be misconstrued otherwise.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

These internet lawyers could have a real job in the courtroom the way the pick out which facts they want to!

*Reads half a posts.

Picks out a small item that annoys them or they can retort to.

PROFIT?!*

[No1_sonuk]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Please mind the gap between the google lawyer and the barrister!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/contents Only Sections 36 to 40 are relevant to this discussion.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

Show me where, for someone over 18, it is an offence to BUY an IF/RIF - That's the only reason a buyer would need a defence.

And this is VERY interesting. At least it should be to those who question why the IF/RIF parts of the legislation were written the way they are:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0072606_en.pdf

In particular: On page 6, para 4.4, regarding restriction of sale to under 18s:

It would still be open to parents to buy imitations for use by their children where they wished to do so.

Note these are all UK Government web site links, not Google...

[BAMF]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/contents Only Sections 36 to 40 are relevant to this discussion.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

Show me where, for someone over 18, it is an offence to BUY an IF/RIF - That's the only reason a buyer would need a defence.

And this is VERY interesting. At least it should be to those who question why the IF/RIF parts of the legislation were written the way they are:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0072606_en.pdf

In particular: On page 6, para 4.4, regarding restriction of sale to under 18s:

Note these are all UK Government web site links, not Google...

As I requested, are you able to verify your knowledge and application of law other than using a search engine other than Google to get to a specific website?

As my earlier (Misquoted) statement mentions, we're on an internet forum relating to toy guns. People that ask for advice want just that...advice. They don't want to be bamboozled by the intricacies of legislation. They come on, ask a question and want others opinions, not (Potentially) misleading information that they may easily obtain themselves. One can't beat living in the real world and having experiences of subjects.

[magslap]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

[QUOTE=No1_sonuk;938509]

In particular: On page 6, para 4.4, regarding restriction of sale to under 18s:

[QUOTE]
which says "imitation"....not "replica imitation"......i thought there was a difference?

[Sam-Beta]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

They are indeed different. IF can be sold to anyone over 18. RIFs require the seller to have a defense for doing so.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

As my earlier (Misquoted) statement mentions, we're on an internet forum relating to toy guns. People that ask for advice want just that...advice. They don't want to be bamboozled by the intricacies of legislation. They come on, ask a question and want others opinions, not (Potentially) misleading information that they may easily obtain themselves. One can't beat living in the real world and having experiences of subjects.

The problem is that the advice given is often misleading because it's based on flawed interpretations and "chinese whispers", etc.

In particular: On page 6, para 4.4, regarding restriction of sale to under 18s:

which says "imitation"....not "replica imitation"......i thought there was a difference?

Section 38 of the VCRA defines a "Realistic Imitation Firearm" as a specific form of Imitiation Firearm.
As an analogy: If "Imitation Firearm" was equated to "window", "Realistic Imitation Firearm" could be equated to "stained glass window".

However, Section 36,1,(b) of the VCRA implies "IF" could mean "non-realistic".
As there's no specific term for non-realistic IF, the generic "IF" has become commonly used to describe them. This is the interpretation generally accepted by retailers, etc.
e.g. In the previous analogy, "window" is usually interpreted to mean a clear glass window unless specified otherwise.

[magslap]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

i thought it had guidlines as to what an if was such as,brightly coloured,or smaller than the real thing,or anything that stops it from looking like a rif

[Caveira]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

IFs are Imitation Firearms. RIFs are a sub-class of IFs which are not only imitation firearms, but Realistic ones.

All RIFs are IFs.

All IFs are not RIFs.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

i thought it had guidlines as to what an if was such as,brightly coloured,or smaller than the real thing,or anything that stops it from looking like a rif

Section 38,3 of the VCRA:

3)In determining for the purposes of this section whether an imitation firearm is distinguishable from a real firearm—

(a)the matters that must be taken into account include any differences between the size, shape and principal colour of the imitation firearm and the size, shape and colour in which the real firearm is manufactured; and

(b)the imitation is to be regarded as distinguishable if its size, shape or principal colour is unrealistic for a real firearm.

If it's indistinguishable, it's a RIF.
As RIFs are the main concern, they are more specifically referred to than non-realistic.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

To further reinforce the point:
Section 40 of the VCRA (the part which bans sale to under-18s) only uses the term "Imitation Firearm".
If RIF wasn't a subset of IF, it would, technically, be legal to sell a RIF to an under-18. That's clearly not the case.

[BAMF]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

The problem is that the advice given is often misleading because it's based on flawed interpretations and "chinese whispers", etc.


Section 38 of the VCRA defines a "Realistic Imitation Firearm" as a specific form of Imitiation Firearm.
As an analogy: If "Imitation Firearm" was equated to "window", "Realistic Imitation Firearm" could be equated to "stained glass window".

However, Section 36,1,(b) of the VCRA implies "IF" could mean "non-realistic".
As there's no specific term for non-realistic IF, the generic "IF" has become commonly used to describe them. This is the interpretation generally accepted by retailers, etc.
e.g. In the previous analogy, "window" is usually interpreted to mean a clear glass window unless specified otherwise.

Jolly good, but once more you have misquoted my text by omitting the request I made regarding your actual knowledge/experience of the application of legislation. It is simple enough to find relevant sites and paraphrase text written therein, but you are presenting your statements as though you "Know" what you're talking about?

Are you able or willing to comply with my basic request to give credibility to your "Knowledge?"