TM Recoil guns

[specialist]

Re: TM Recoil guns

Like most on this thread, i'm very much a fan of TM recoils, but also admire the Systema Celsius products for what they offer, but one thing has always puzzled me, and that is, despite their correct proportions, where does the "training weapon" bit come in, I may be wrong, (and i'm quite prepared to be told I am) but I've never heard of much training being done with "toy" guns, which is really what even the Systema/Celcius also are, after all.

Airsoft weapons have been used for years for real world police and military training. US Army Rangers, Police SWAT teams, 40 (i think) Commando, UK SF are among the units I know of. Classic Army, Systema and WE GBB weapons are among the manufacturers.

Airsoft weapons are also used by Ukrainian defence forces in CQB training.

It beats blanks and is cheaper and less hassle than 'simunition.'

[Coski]

Re: TM Recoil guns

If you really are after a training weapon, I would mirror would Delta said above and get a KWA ERG. Whilst cheaper than the TM Recoil shocks, the external quality is SO much better, the kick is more, and the performance is not far off at all. And the fact they come stock at a higher FPS is a bonus.

[JCheeseright]

Re: TM Recoil guns

as an aside... I wouldn't recommend an 11.1v battery in a recoil. New trigger contacts are a pain to get hold of if you use a lot of semi auto and with auto the ROF boost you'll get will eventually cause a timing issue between the recoil unit and the piston, 100% guaranteed piston strip.

[Delta]

Re: TM Recoil guns

These last few posts have made me happy.

You've clearly bought the wrong thing for what you wanted due to lack of research. I don't understand why you are expecting to use it like a RS weapon. As the others have said its a toy. Don't get me wrong, I don't take the greatest care with my rifles.. I've broken my fair share of the cheaper ones but never anything higher end with good quality externals, that being said I have never owned a TM Recoil as I went down the KWA/PTS ERG route.

Each to their own, but there's no point slating a product due to your disappointment. At the end of the day there is a HUGE following for the TM Recoil platform and it is VERY popular for a very good reason (the facebook group alone has over 1000 members).

Personally I would stop having a tantrum and accept you're disappointed. Sell the recoil and buy yourself another CTW or delve into the realms of GBBRs where I can guarantee you will be disappointed as they're temperature dependant mostly which is absolutely no acceptable because "how can a training weapon not be used in the cold? it should mimic it's RS counterpart entirely arghhhhh!"

Peace.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Re: TM Recoil guns

I think there's a point of wanting realism in airsoft where you should just join the army, TA reserve or something if death and depleted uranium doesn't sound much fun

I've tried TM recoils and didn't do it for me enough to merit the extra £200, I'm a bad enough shot without the gun bouncing around and felt more a hinderance than benefit. Guess I'd rather have a toy with better capabilities than realism, can see how a PTW can offer both but as others have said the TM recoils are only single step in this direction compared to standard TM guns. Looks like the next step is more of a giant leap and costs double the money!

[PureSilver]

Re: TM Recoil guns

Airsoft weapons have been used for years for real world police and military training. US Army Rangers, Police SWAT teams, 40 (i think) Commando, UK SF are among the units I know of. Classic Army, Systema and WE GBB weapons are among the manufacturers. [...] Airsoft weapons are also used by Ukrainian defence forces in CQB training.

Could you elaborate on how you know? I have never seen (though I've not been especially searching for it) any official or unofficial announcement that any LE or military agency undertakes any real training with 'PTWs'. Systema did push the original PTWs to mil/LE when they were originally released, but I've never seen any convincing evidence that anyone was interested. I know that there was an adoption test of airsoft guns in the US, but I've not seen anything come of that in the last five years and there's no mention of Systema. Where are the NSNs? Where are the soldiers saying "When I played airsoft in the Army..."? Why in God's name would the not-exactly-cash-strapped elite units like the Commandos, UKSF, and Army Rangers want to train with what is a gun-shaped object, and not a gun? These are not people who have difficulty getting access to real weapons, blanks, MILES or Simunition. I could understand if Ukraine - a not-very-well-off nation currently fighting a desperate war - was reduced to playing with toys, or if tiny PDs were using them for cut-price training, but otherwise, why? Airsoft guns - even true 1:1 PTWs - are not particularly similar to real weapons.

[T]hat's what a training weapon is supposed to be able to handle and should be resistant to [...] for MILSIM requirements, rough handling, field maintenance it falls well short of GBB's and PTW/ CTW weapons

It is a toy. They are all toys, even the wildly overpriced 'training weapons'. Even if these things were widely used by any military/LEA of note to train, you personally are not 'training' with them; you're playing a game, and when you play games you use a toy...

[specialist]

TM Recoil guns

Umm. Quite a few of us are ex or current serving in the Forces and so MILSIM is our thing. I own a range of WE GBB weapons. They are the closest to RS weapons you can get.

Had I researched properly, the KWA ERG would have probably been the better choice for a whole range of reasons.

The price point of the TM implies a certain level of quality. Having a rubbish stock, cheap materials and exaggerated recoil does not meet that expectation.

Not being able to run an M100 spring without upgrading the gears is a clear example of the cheap internals.

Not being 11.1v lipo today is short sighted- particularly at the £455 base price. The KWA ERG is 11.1v ready out of the box. You can stick an m100 spring without a geabox upgrade. The KWA is £155 cheaper,.

If the TM were £150 cheaper, then it would be a great toy.

Nuff said. :-)

[specialist]

TM Recoil guns

How do I know airsoft weapons are used by the military?

I have witnessed US Army Rangers used for CQB. A mate of mine, a bootneck Sgt told me so. I have seen Ukrainian military use then for CQB. I could go on.

Why use them? Seriously, you have to ask? Because real bullets really hurt and force on force CQB training would get really ugly with real rounds.

Oh, and simunition is expensive and time consuming - especially the bloody mess to clean up on the weapon. Engagement range is similar to an airsoft weapon. It has it's place of course as does L85 laser training weapons in the military- yes, 'toys'

I looking for a weapon that resembles RS by way of operation. Having recoiling bolt, bolt lock, extremely responsive trigger, 30 rounds and able to simulate cocking the weapon, field maintainable, weather resistant and robust does it for me :-

The TM recoil 'shock' does not do it. But I'm sure as a running around day skirmish weapon it is lovable though ;-)

[jonny lovegrove]

Re: TM Recoil guns

Actually, all the police & marine training ive seen has been with blanks and sims.
But as i said, TM Recoil.

[JCheeseright]

Re: TM Recoil guns

Umm. Quite a few of us are ex or current serving in the Forces and so MILSIM is our thing. I own a range of WE GBB weapons. They are the closest to RS weapons you can get.

Had I researched properly, the KWA ERG would have probably been the better choice for a whole range of reasons.

The price point of the TM implies a certain level of quality. Having a rubbish stock, cheap materials and exaggerated recoil does not meet that expectation.

Not being able to run an M100 spring without upgrading the gears is a clear example of the cheap internals.

Not being 11.1v lipo today is short sighted- particularly at the £455 base price. The KWA ERG is 11.1v ready out of the box. You can stick an m100 spring without a geabox upgrade. The KWA is £155 cheaper,.

If the TM were £150 cheaper, then it would be a great toy.

Nuff said. :-)

TM recoil shock can run an M100 spring with no modification at all, mine's been doing so for some time now (well over a year).

As for PTWs/CTWs being 'better built'... no, they're still pot metal and zamak no matter what the manufacturer says, a teammate of mine hit his £2k+ PTW on a doorframe last month and it snapped in half.

They're all still toys, no matter what we call them.

As for them not standing up to 'milsim', I've taken my recoil guns on many stirling weekend milsim games, submerged them in water, been in freezing cold, boiling heat, dropped them, fallen on them (I'm not a massive guy, but with kit I'm pushing 14st), so far no problems with durability. Obviously I couldn't use the stock to bash in fenceposts but you can't do that with a real AR and you certainly can't do it with a CTW!

Your list of desired features here:
"RS by way of operation. Having recoiling bolt, bolt lock, extremely responsive trigger, 30 rounds and able to simulate cocking the weapon, field maintainable, weather resistant and robust"

Inokatsu GBBR, it's as weather resistant as any GBB and as for the feel and operation it does everything a real gun does... but you still can't beat people to death with it.

[sparrowhawk]

Re: TM Recoil guns

Training weapon quality eh....




taken from systema owners group on facebook

[mack]

Re: TM Recoil guns

[specialist]

Re: TM Recoil guns

What the heck is that knocking sound in the TM M4 Recoil when it's shaken slightly? Take the load-out noise test by jumping on the spot and you'll hear a silly knocking sound- from the TM Recoil M4 'shock' !

There's also a knock in TM M4 Recoil if one grounds it butt down without much vigour. That would be a real pain tactically in the dead of night if one needed to, for example, take a knee to confer. This Tm Recoil gets more disappointing the more I try it out.

Got a KWA RM4 ERG M4 CQBR last night. What a complete and utter contrast- 11.1 v ready, no gearbox upgrade needed. Feels more solid. Feels like twice the recoil effect, no cheap toy bits on it and does NOT make silly knocking noises. Changing the spring twice as fast and a lot less hassle- can be field changed. For those that love the TM Recoil shock, enjoy and continue to be happy. I think I'll be happier knowing I have a weapon system that can be used for MILSIM in all scenarios and for around £250 less that the equivalent TM recoil setup with 6 mags. Like it says on the KWA box, Magpul Professtional Training System (PTS).

[jonny lovegrove]

Re: TM Recoil guns

So ive shaken mine as hard as i can, and the only thing rattling is a sling?

If stealth is your thing, a recoil isnt the way to go, nor is a TW.
Both make very distinctive noises.

[specialist]

Re: TM Recoil guns

So ive shaken mine as hard as i can, and the only thing rattling is a sling?

If stealth is your thing, a recoil isnt the way to go, nor is a TW.
Both make very distinctive noises.

i'm not talking about firing, I describing a knocking sound when the weapon is being moved. I've never heard any Airsoft weapon make knocking sounds by default / design when it's not being discharged

Doesn't your recoil weight in the buffer tube move when you, say shake the rifle along it's axis?