Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

[jfox61]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

so fire comes in we start walking? The more fire the slower we walk? If as you say you are putting a hail of fire then i would want to get out of the way quick as. If you are accurate you are going to hit with more than 1 bb and I am sure someone will feel more than one. I agree though, it is hard to hear bbs whizzing in when you are running but i do question whether or not you wouldn't feel them. I have on numerous occasions hit people who are running full petlt in fll gear and they stop when hit. I personally think that you can hear and feel it most of the tme and anyone and so it is, for me a cheating aspect that we are talking about. In a nutshell though i dont think running fast is cheating. Nor do i think taking cover and going low when firing breaks out is wrong either.

[The Eternal Child]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

Right Im going to bite the bullet a little bit hear and say there has probably been a time iv made a short dash and not felt/noticed a hit. Not through I need to make it to that cover ect just range or were the round has stuck me. And Im willing to say its probably happened to everyone hear as well. Its no fault of your own and Im sure your all very honrable players so to be clear im not acusing anyone of cheating.

On the other side of things Iv felt/herd a round hit me while running full pelt, hand might no go up strate away as you know slowing down before trying to stop is often a good idea but it will be taken.

Theres nothing you can do to stop people from breaking from cover during heavy fire its there choice. Id give them the benifit of the doubt if they ran through a hail of fire. Maybe a round hit them maybe it didnt I would rather presume it didnt and not challenge that players honour. Because I might well miss him or I may have cought an empty pouch and them simply not notice.

So to answer the question if you shott at someone when they were making a break for cover to try and you dont see them call a hit ect. Then might I suggest shooting at them some more.

Thats my two pence worth.

Curtis

[aribos]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

Sorry but IMO If you are running full pelt and being fired at, if you dont feel the hit, why take it? I know this is an honest game etc but If you see the guy run, shoot him and he doesn't take the hit because he cant feel it, leather him when he is in cover or shout for a marshal!

If he has not taken a hit because he cannot feel it, it is only the same principle as a guy getting hit on the ghillie and not knowing, We are ALL guilty of doing it at times, Whether it be wondering if it was rain or something hitting us or if it was on a thick part of gear and we didn't know.

Be fair and give the guy a chance, If its blatant full auto half a mag into him then call for a marshal, if it is just a few BBs that may of hit him but strayed or been floaters then just leave it and leather him on full auto when he sticks out of cover (which is pretty much a certainty)

[nicholashay]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

I think everyone runs for cover when fired at, it is a natural human response! What exactly would you suggest people do instead? In the end when getting hit it comes down to personal honesty and integrity.

[Shiftycapone]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

I believe the following statement to be wrong,
"I didn't see a hit but because you were running you just didn't feel them."

This statement is frustrating especially at 40m+ because if you cant see the hit, and they didn't notice it, and no marshal has seen it either, it'd be wrong to call them out. However if you do see those BBs bouncing off them without them taking a hit just report them to a marshal.

Maybe I'm a bad shot, maybe they cant feel there hits, I just keep shooting them till they take it or the marshal calls them out. When shooting at runners at close range, not only can you see the hit, but they can feel it and it can hurt!

On a side note I think this topic sums up why good marshelling at games is so important.

[The Keeper of Secrets]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

I believe the following statement to be wrong,
"I didn't see a hit but because you were running you just didn't feel them."

I never said that though did I? My original post was about the ethics of doing something that stops you feeling hits whilst being fired on. I'm not on about whether I've hit them or not, I'm on about the basic premise of using "I can't feel hits" as an excuse to run through storms of fire.

[The Eternal Child]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

I never said that though did I? My original post was about the ethics of doing something that stops you feeling hits whilst being fired on. I'm not on about whether I've hit them or not, I'm on about the basic premise of using "I can't feel hits" as an excuse to run through storms of fire.

So using your ethics of doing something that stops you feeling hits when fired upon we should: not allow the use of ghilli as you might not feel/hear a hit in one of them, nobody should wear multiple layers in the winter because it could stop you feeling a hit, heavy rigs should not be allowed becaue they stop you feeling a hit and we should not run for cover because that will stop you from being hit?

Personaly this thread as lead me to believe that you cant hit a moving target. People have given numerous sujestions and none seem to be good enough for you.

Curtis

[The Keeper of Secrets]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

So using your ethics of doing something that stops you feeling hits when fired upon we should: not allow the use of ghilli as you might not feel/hear a hit in one of them, nobody should wear multiple layers in the winter because it could stop you feeling a hit, heavy rigs should not be allowed becaue they stop you feeling a hit and we should not run for cover because that will stop you from being hit?

Personaly this thread as lead me to believe that you cant hit a moving target. People have given numerous sujestions and none seem to be good enough for you.

Curtis

Slightly uncalled for? I can and have on many occasions hit a moving target, both on the airsoft field and in varions clay-pigion competitions.

I think that if people know in advance that doing something will stop them feeling hits, then yes they shouldn't do it whilst being fired on, and then assume they didn't get hit. That's a fairly simple premise and I think it's perfectly reasonable.

[Caveira]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

I'm on about the basic premise of using "I can't feel hits" as an excuse to run through storms of fire.

If it's a deliberate use of running to avoid calling a hit you know that you've taken, then that's 100% cheating.

If someone gets up and runs into a storm of fire, because they think they can get away with it, also 100% cheating.

BUT, if they run to avoid getting hit (which a natural reaction, a legitimate military tactic (this is after all combat simulation) and within the rules), what do you suggest? I've never been to a site where they haven't mentioned the risk of people not feeling/hearing hits. Neither have I heard a briefing that doesn't ask you not to start calling people cheats.

You're right that sometimes people may not know that they've been hit, but that is a risk involved in a game that doesn't use paint to mark hits.

TKOS, I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of the game and the guns and tactics involved in it, but in this case I'm sorry but you just seem to be determined to have us stand and fight like a bunch of gunfighters in a dodgy western and if we don't, you seem to be implying that a lot of the time we're deliberately cheating by running away from fire.

[Shiftycapone]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

I never said that though did I?

My post never claimed that you did. In fact it wasn't directed at anybody.

My previous post highlighted the importance of marshals to back up either the shooter's or the runner's claim. It is my opinion that a hit always needs to be confirmed by the shooter, runner or marshal or else it wont count.

If this thread is about cheatting, "Winners never cheat and cheaters never win."

[bravotwozero]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

I think this thread has run it's course

[The General]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

No, I think this is a fair comment. I am a big guy and tend to have a fair bit of gear on. When I run at full pelt, I lose a great deal of situational awareness. I am focused on my objective. Be that getting to a bit of cover or getting away from a threat. Unless I am at fairly close range or catch a bb in the arm, leg or face, I will admit, I am highly unlikely to feel the bb.

Now I had an incident where one chap was literally running through a stream of bb's from cover to cover.

He did it at least three times and in the end he was getting danger close and I was furious that he was not taking his hits! I did not call him a cheat out loud however as that would have cost my team points. I called myself out as I knew the next time he popped up was going to force me to headshot him at about 20-25 foot range. I knew that was too far for a bang and I was not happy doing a full face shot with a 330 ish gun on a guy wearing shooting glasses. Meh, that was my call to make.

The first couple of times, the distance, the running, the blood being up, whatever. I can totally accept as I know I find it very hard to feel bb hits when running. Half of my detection of a hit is in my hearing and when running at full flank speed, I can't hear a bb hit! Unless its a solid strike with some force.

At a game I attended recently, we were told that marshals might tell a person to take your webbing/vest/jacket/plate carrier off. Don't argue with the marshal just do it right there and then. We don't want to ruin the game for you but your gear is preventing you feeling your hits so in this situation you will have to reduce the worn kit.

Now reading between the lines, this is also a comment that cheaters will be given the benifit of the doubt and asked to remove gear if repeating the cheating. Then there will be less and less chance of claiming not feeling the hits.

I think its a very common problem that runners do not feel the hits and cant hear them at any real range.

Also to add, look at how many people are well covered with gear, padding and vests that replicate body armour. And we wonder why people cant feel hits?

[Shiftycapone]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

I liked the General's post and agree with many people here that the chances of feeling a hit are greatly reduced by running. Therefore proving to be an unfair advantage as it relys upon the shooter and/or marshal to spot the hits. Not to open a can of worms though, but airsoft might loose some of its appeal if we didn't have those "heroic" moments by honest players.

On the plus side runners aren't very good at shooting back so burn them with fire until you get that confirmed hit.

[Evansy]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

Lets bring maths into the equation :p
*Borrowed from another forum*

The mathematics of taking your Hits
~Human reaction time from sense to movement starting is about 0.2-0.5s (it varies by person, fatigue levels, experience of the stimulus in question and by stimulus type)
~The movement to raise/aim your weapon takes an appreciable 0.1-0.3s, depending on practice and 'muscle memory'
~So let's be generous and say that from seeing a opponent to aiming your RIF and pulling the trigger takes 0.4s- that's with a well practiced and instinctive reaction from an experienced player.
~30m equates to about 100 feet.
~Your AEG fires at 330fps- the notional 1J 'Yardstick' for UK RIFs
~100feet/330fps= 0.3 seconds (0.3s)
:~Thus It takes 0.3s for a BB to travel from your muzzle to your target 30m away.
~ 0.3s Travel Time + 0.4s Reaction Time= 0.7s Total
Therefore, at 30 metres, the total time from observation to first hit is 0.7s.

At the same time:
~The sound of your AEG travels at over 1100fps. (Note: this varies by about 50fps due to the density of air varying with temperature/humidity but it's never LESS than 1100fps)
~At 30m, the sound takes less than 0.09s to reach your target- 0.21s AHEAD of your BBs.
~Ducking when you hear AEG fire is probably the very first instinct you learn in Airsoft- it's an automatic reaction and thus faster
~Let's say that the 'duck' reaction of your opponent is thus 0.2s
So Time from you pulling the trigger to your target begining to duck is 0.29s
You opponent is therefore already beginning to move as your first BB reaches where they were when you took aim- if it was just an arm you were aiming at then the chances are, at 30m, you've hit the tree they are hiding behind.

Some 'Caveats'
0: THE BIG ONE: This assumes that your opponent has only heard your shot and was STATIC before you shot
~If they see you at the same time as YOU see them then they have 0.3s in hand - the 0.3s it takes your BBs to travel to them- to dive to cover - while a third of a second might not seem much, it can be the difference between yelling "HIT!" or suddenly getting rounds back from your target!
Likewise, if your target was already moving obliquely to the line of fire (and you didn't lead them enough) then it's likely your BBs are landing where they were, rather than where they are.

So basically there's almost a second between you pulling the trigger and the bbs getting to where you are aiming.
If we also add to this the speed at which someone runs, which my googlefu puts at 12mph/17.6fps you will need to be shooting upto 17ft in front of where someone is running at about 30m to even get your bbs to where they will be when the bbs get there.

At closer distances the off set will be smaller but there is still that gap between the sound of your aeg and the bbs getting there and then you also have to account for the lead you need to get your bbs to meet your target.

Basically if you cant say for sure you've hit someone then you probably haven't and if you're sure you have then shoot them again.
If you want to make sure people who are running will feel a hit do what Lt. Macka suggested and shoot them in the thighs. They will feel it and your also close to the family jewels and they will defiantly feel that.

Now if it's a question of if someone should be allowed to wear kit they may not feel a hit through then thats a whole other subject and I'm not the person to ask about that because I will open another big can of worms with my answer?

[Lt. Macka]

Re: Opinion on a tactic that I can't bear.

this still boils down to honesty and taking your hits though doesn't it!

I don't think it is safe to simply assume that because the runner has loads of kit on and it pumped with adrenaline that you hit hit and he didn't feel it.

I have done the heroic dash with just a t-shirt and my rifle and didn't get hit- no f*cking way I wouldn't have felt it.

as i said before your chances of hitting a runner at say 40m are much less than hitting a runner at say 10m. so you can not simply assume you hit him and he didnt feel it - just the same as a fully kitted runner cannot assume he wasn't hit.

the best course of action is to have a word if a discrepancy occurs.