What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

[Andrew March]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

I think the bottom line here is one we should adhere to is that if you want advice on a point of law go see a solicitor or someone actually qualified in giving advice on a specific piece of legislation and I for one will be doing just that the next time one of these threads comes up.

[westywesty84]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Hmmmm I've skip read most of this but here we go.....again!

Ukara is bullsh*t-and mainly because a lot of sites won't give you your stamp without a £50+ membership.
Vcra was brought in to stop seaside retailers cease selling bb guns, to stop terrorising the locals and to put guidelines into place for knife ownership!

If you want to buy a gun, hand it to your friend, and then he decides to give you £200 a week later, because he's nice...so what...if he's a cock with it, he's the one getting fuc*ed for it...an rightly so!

I really wish people would grow a pair. Read the vcra for fcuks sake.....SWAT ain't gonna bust down your door because you bought a RIF for a guy you KNOW is a skirmishes...a defence can be made for someone other than a site owner....more BS!!

[Sam-Beta]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

My head hurts.

[magslap]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

[QUOTE=westywesty84;938747]Hmmmm I've skip read most of this but here we go.....again!

Ukara is bullsh*t-and mainly because a lot of sites won't give you your stamp without a £50+ membership.




QUOTE]
£50+......and what does the membership cover? (please note,my site doesnt charge this much)....however,how much does it cost to rent/buy a peice of land suitable for skirmishing?how much is the yearly insurance to legally be open to the public?how much does the owner have to invest in equipment for hire such as...guns,clothing,batts and mags?
also to have a very large stock of bb's for purchasing every game day?
how much for the upkeep of the land/maintence of onsite equipment such as building and barricades and such like?
how much for upkeep of faciclites,like a brew cabin,toilets etc?
how much for all the admin such as preparing and the sending off ,of membership details such as ukara.
a discount on green fees,consumables,free tea and coffe and juice all day (at some sites not all).
having electricity out in the middle of nowhere so you can charge batts/have light and such (generator cost?)
theres probably more to add here,such as the time spent off game days sorting out scenarios,making props and advertising the site.

so why should a site let you have ukara for free?its a hobby,some have been able to turn it into a business,some make enough just to keep a site running.
i teach at a local jujitsu club,our club is non profit.....ie all the money goes back into the club,theres a lot involved in keeping it running,sometimes it annoys me when students whinge about costs.....and yet our costs are kept to a minimum,we supply a luxurious training hall with tons of equipment for their use.....baering in mind that when i was a student,it was freezing cold scout huts and such like,where all the mats had holes in,so you trained on the floor instead of the mats.....we didnt whinge because we enjoyed ourselves.but a lot of unseen work goes into many things like airsoft sites,some i beleive ARE money mad,but the only way to deal with that is to find another club.

lets not also forget......ukara dont tell the sites how much they should charge for membership....thats nothing to do with ukara,my site charges a lot less than £50 because it isnt money mad.as long as it makes enough to keep going then alls good.but actual costs are down to the site owner.

[Caveira]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

£50+......and what does the membership cover? (please note,my site doesnt charge this much)....however,how much does it cost to rent/buy a peice of land suitable for skirmishing?how much is the yearly insurance to legally be open to the public?how much does the owner have to invest in equipment for hire such as...guns,clothing,batts and mags?
also to have a very large stock of bb's for purchasing every game day?
how much for the upkeep of the land/maintence of onsite equipment such as building and barricades and such like?
how much for upkeep of faciclites,like a brew cabin,toilets etc?
how much for all the admin such as preparing and the sending off ,of membership details such as ukara.
a discount on green fees,consumables,free tea and coffe and juice all day (at some sites not all).
having electricity out in the middle of nowhere so you can charge batts/have light and such (generator cost?)
theres probably more to add here,such as the time spent off game days sorting out scenarios,making props and advertising the site.

If a site decides to do all that and charge £50 membership I would expect to pay a VERY low walk on fee - no more than around a tenner. I would also expect that site to go out of business very quickly as people wouldn't pay the membership fee, just play regularly.

A sensible business would work out their cashflow and charge their needs to the walkon fees. A membership fee should be just that, the costs involved in membership (only the bits I've marked from your post in bold). Not the costs involved in running the site for everyone, including non-members.

[Caveira]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Ignore

[magslap]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

If a site decides to do all that and charge £50 membership I would expect to pay a VERY low walk on fee - no more than around a tenner. .

they can use the money however they see fit...store all the memberships in an account as backup for any quiet times or whatever.
the green fee SHOULD be based on the daily requirements of running a club......i just dont see £50 as unreasonable considering other things ive been involved in.
sometimes its a pain coming up with the money,i have to do a 120 mile round trip ( i beleive you have to travel further) to my local,so costs can sharply rise,just for one game day....but thats whats required for me to be in the hobby. (wished i lived closer to my site )

[Caveira]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

they can use the money however they see fit...store all the memberships in an account as backup for any quiet times or whatever.
the green fee SHOULD be based on the daily requirements of running a club......i just dont see £50 as unreasonable considering other things ive been involved in.

I agree that it's their choice 100%, but sensible business planning means loading your day-to-day costs onto your day-to-day income stream and not a payment that's optional. Obviously, if it's members only site then that would be a completely different matter.

As a small business owner, I'm very aware of cashflow management. You have to protect that above all things. It's not debts that sink businesses (or people/countries), it's the lack of cashflow to service those debts. As Charles Dickens wrote:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."

i have to do a 120 mile round trip ( i beleive you have to travel further) to my local,so costs can sharply rise,just for one game day....but thats whats required for me to be in the hobby. (wished i lived closer to my site )

True. Mine's a 500 mile round trip and adds about £50 to my costs. Then again, that does mean that I'm less bothered about a few quid here and there on green fees. As I'm spending around £100 for the day, I'd rather add an extra tenner to ensure a very good day rather than save a tenner and have a carp one.

What I wouldn't do, though, is be a member at a site that people can play at without membership if I'm being charged £50 for that membership. If they chose to charge that and would still confirm that you're a regular player, then I'd just play and tell retailers to call them. If they didn't, I'd get the basic games in somewhere else.

[magslap]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

I agree that it's their choice 100%, but sensible business planning means loading your day-to-day costs onto your day-to-day income stream and not a payment that's optional. Obviously, if it's members only site then that would be a completely different matter.

As a small business owner, I'm very aware of cashflow management. You have to protect that above all things. It's not debts that sink businesses (or people/countries), it's the lack of cashflow to service those debts. As Charles Dickens wrote:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."



True. Mine's a 500 mile round trip and adds about £50 to my costs. Then again, that does mean that I'm less bothered about a few quid here and there on green fees. As I'm spending around £100 for the day, I'd rather add an extra tenner to ensure a very good day rather than save a tenner and have a carp one.

What I wouldn't do, though, is be a member at a site that people can play at without membership if I'm being charged £50 for that membership. If they chose to charge that and would still confirm that you're a regular player, then I'd just play and tell retailers to call them. If they didn't, I'd get the basic games in somewhere else.

agreed,but again,membership...and how hard/easy they want to make purchasing rifs is upto each person individually.
i too ran a business for 6 years,then sold it and lived off the proceeds for a nice long lazy while...
just helping the wife to run her business now....life is good

[cannon_fodder]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

So who's happy to pay £50 per year for simple UKARA only based site membership.

Alright there's a bit of time and effort to set up an account in the first place. Photos, utility bill , driving license etc. so a one off charge of £10 or so is justified but renewal takes 10 secs and can be done from the site owners IPhone !. My last renewal took that long. Showed the owner my membership card and I had another year confirmed before I could put the card away.

Don't forget that retailers have to pay big fees to UKARA, sites don't. Retailers need UKARA, sites don't. Its in UKARAs interests to get as many sites and players on their database as possible.

Membership that offers reduce priced walkons and cheaper BB's + pyro is one thing and if you play alot can be a great deal but high charges just for a UKARA number only is unjustified.
The need for a UKARA number keeps the player coming back to his home site, there is no need to gouge him as well

[Caveira]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

agreed,but again,membership...and how hard/easy they want to make purchasing rifs is upto each person individually.

Totally agree.

Making life easy for your members, though, should be factored into your business plan if you run an airsoft site. Without members you can still function, but without players you can't. If the cost of membership puts people off joining, and playing there doesn't allow you to prove you're a regular player, then they'll simply go elsewhere.

just helping the wife to run her business now....life is good

I couldn't agree more. Mine's a private dentist, so I cover my bills, my share of the household bills and add a bit for things like holidays and airsoft. Other than that, if I help out around the house and with her admin from time to time, then we're both happy. 40-50 hour weeks have go down to 10-20 hour ones!

So who's happy to pay £50 per year for simple UKARA only based site membership.

Alright there's a bit of time and effort to set up an account in the first place. Photos, utility bill , driving license etc. so a one off charge of £10 or so is justified but renewal takes 10 secs and can be done from the site owners IPhone !. My last renewal took that long. Showed the owner my membership card and I had another year confirmed before I could put the card away.

Don't forget that retailers have to pay big fees to UKARA, sites don't. Retailers need UKARA, sites don't. Its in UKARAs interests to get as many sites and players on their database as possible.

Membership that offers reduce priced walkons and cheaper BB's + pyro is one thing and if you play alot can be a great deal but high charges just for a UKARA number only is unjustified.
The need for a UKARA number keeps the player coming back to his home site, there is no need to gouge him as well

Being a regular at GZW I pay £10 per year.

OK, the cost of giving me a new card each year (and emailing UKARA) is probably only a few quid, but I also get a reduced walk on fee which is worth £50-60 per year to me.

On that basis I'm happy to pay £10 but if it went up to (for example) £25 I'd start to question the thinking behind it. At £50 I'd simply go elsewhere, unless the walk on fees came down.

[crasstoe]

Where are people paying to get UKARA membership? I've never come across a site where you pay a fee...
Sent from my TITAN X310e using Board Express

[magslap]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

Where are people paying to get UKARA membership? I've never come across a site where you pay a fee...
Sent from my TITAN X310e using Board Express

thats because were talking about club membership,which is then used to get on ukara database

[No1_sonuk]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

My local charges £15 game fee. The first is £17 to cover the card and admin, then that's it. £15 a day, and no extra fee for UKARA admin, etc.
This might be because it's a relatively big site that "tacked-on" airsoft to a well-established paintball business, so some of the overhead is shared.

[BAMF]

Re: What's to stop a friend from buying guns for me with his UKARA?

My local charges £15 game fee. The first is £17 to cover the card and admin, then that's it. £15 a day, and no extra fee for UKARA admin, etc.
This might be because it's a relatively big site that "tacked-on" airsoft to a well-established paintball business, so some of the overhead is shared.

Over a day ago, I asked you a simple question.

Despite viewing this thread a number of times and even responding to it, you have yet to answer?