Two tones?

[Andrew March]

Re: Two tones?

So much hate in this thread, hate leads to anger, anger leads to fear, fear leads to bright green guns........

Couldn't give a monkeys what colour gun you decide to play with, if you put something up for sale be open and honest about it before agreeing a sale. EX 2 tone gun for sale!!!! job done, can't get angry when it falls through.

[bovinedog]

Re: Two tones?

Im 38 and recently started playing. I played at a few sites about once a month over the course of about 6 months, but never played with the same company 3 times, so couldnt apply for ukara. One of the sites I went to were running a special event at the mall, which would make it my third event BUT they werent planning on having any rentals. So, I bought some second hand two tone gear. I took the mp5 apart, learned how it all worked, tweaked it, upgraded a couple of bits (then downgraded when it was running at 370+ fps) and it shoots VERY well. But its part bright green.... I used it a couple of events (the one I bought it for got delayed for a month or two!) and it was great. Yes its green and I did feel self conscious about it. I used it at the event I bought it for and got complimented by the marshalls and the guy who ran the event on my playing and shooting, despite the day glo gear!

I have now got my ukara and swapped to RIFs, and the mp5 is now my spare. I did a very quick spray on it before my last event, so it could be my spare. I understand the need for two tones and personally dont have an issue with them. The more important thing is how the person with the gun is playing. I've played at sites where there are people with tricked up gbbrs, but they were rude and aggressive to other players. Just because their team was losing. Which is not what the sport is about. For many though the appeal of the hobby is the "realism" of the gear. Well thats fine, thats great for you, but dont dismiss the two tone people, who dont have a fortune to spend on gear. Teach them the skills they need to play well and dont focus on what they are using. Getting hit with a bb from a green gun is a much a hit as one from a RIF systema!

[Another]

Re: Two tones?

Does everyone think that without two tones, Airsoft shops like Zeroone would be able to sell enough airsoft guns to stay in business, just selling to skirmishers?

[SUPERPROOPERATOR]

Re: Two tones?

On the other hand it's a useful metric, someone who cares enough about two tones to sneer in someones face in the safe zone about the colour of their gun is someone you can safely avoid talking to and continue to live a fulfilling, purposeful life.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Two tones?

2-tones are GREAT if they're on the other side - Makes them much easier to see in the woods. Especially the bright orange ones. :D

[andysmith]

Re: Two tones?

Yes. He has a defence under the permitted activities section.

As oven your attitude you will no doubt be aware he has to PROVE his defence, and to do that he must be over 18.

Sadly you missed the point of my discussion on manufacture vs modify.


I suppose the easiest way to put it is that there's no real way for an u18 to prove thier entitlement, the police are aware of and accept ukara as proof of entitlement, but that requires you to be over 18. I know there are other schemes out there, but none that I'm aware of that will validate an under 18 as a skirmished for the defence.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Two tones?

These 2 contradict each other:

Yes. He has a defence under the permitted activities section.

As oven your attitude you will no doubt be aware he has to PROVE his defence, and to do that he must be over 18.

The permitted activities section applies to permitted activities for which liability insurance is held.
The age limits on that insurance are what's important. If ANY player is covered by that insurance, they have a defence against Section 36, no matter what age. If they're not covered, due to age or any other reason, they shouldn't play anyway.
What they don't have is a defence against Section 40 of the VCRA which includes:

(1) It is an offence for a person under the age of eighteen to purchase an imitation firearm.
(2) It is an offence to sell an imitation firearm to a person under the age of eighteen.

The "airsoft defence" as it's often called, only provides a defence against Section 36 (which has no age restrictions), not Section 40 (which is the age-restricting section).

You may not like it (and many don't), but that's the way the laws have been written.

[magslap]

Re: Two tones?

but is it a case of.....AND,or not,again its coming down to how its interpreted which could go either way.
somone could argue that the age part is in a different section so doesnt count.....someone else could argue it doesnt matter what section its in....its still there.
i dont see any law that says i cant stick a bagpipe chanter in somones eye.....but there are laws that still cover this without having to describe the actual action mentioned.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Two tones?

i dont see any law that says i cant stick a bagpipe chanter in somones eye.....but there are laws that still cover this without having to describe the actual action mentioned.

That's because the laws on assault are more widely-ranging as to the action involved, and focus more on the result - sticking a chanter in someone's eye will cause bodily harm - that's what they'd get you on. The laws on Imitation firearms are more tightly defined.

[magslap]

Re: Two tones?

That's because the laws on assault are more widely-ranging as to the action involved, and focus more on the result - sticking a chanter in someone's eye will cause bodily harm - that's what they'd get you on. The laws on Imitation firearms are more tightly defined.

shops cant sell guns to under 18. (i beleive air rifles are 17...not 100% sure)
so how...regardless of membership with a site,is an under 18 supposed to get guns.by saying that you cant legally buy a gun,but you can have the defence to buy one is a bit silly and misleading.having somone else buy them for them is one way...but legally the u18 cannot buy it....so whats the point of having a defence that allows you to purchase somthing that is against the law for you to buy anyway because of your age.
again....the vcra2007 has stuff in it,but what about the laws that were already in place about buying guns and the age of the purchaser.
the person purchasing the gun must prove to the shop they have the defence(or whichever way you want to word it)
but the shop wont sell to an u18...............its a contradiction in itself.

[Fizzy]

Re: Two tones?

I can completely understand someones reluctance to buy an ex two tone rifle. Most often, such rifles have been "gifted" to a younger user who will not give the rifle the care, and maintenance it deserves. But as for people trolling on two tones in general, it's just plain idiotic. I reckon a large proportion of you got into airsoft before you were 18. It's a good thing for a young person to get into a sport like airsoft and play it in a controlled environment, and in my oppinion there is no better way to spark that enthusiasm than for the persons to buying him/her a rifle for christmas or whatever. Young players are the reason why the sport still survives and thrives today.

Alternativley the reason why its still going could well be because 30 and 40 odd year old people defended the right to keep the sport. We need younger people to sustain long term, but if anything certain scaremongering papers could used under 18s as a way to create a false perceived threat. Just about very one I know started in their 20's and 30's (with the odd 60's).

All though it sounds a bit naff, those 25+ with reasonable amount if disposable income who can buy systemas keep the money moving and help form credible businesses. What we need in this port is more ex-armed service, doctors, lawyers, police, ambulance drivers, and especialyl politicians which add credibility to a sport.

All this under 18s are the future of Airsoft, it will die without them is rubbish! The future of airsoft is people with the most free time and disposable income, so as you say Skolob, thats people around 25. I remember when a TM would set you back close to £400 and that's all there was. How many under 18s had that sort of money in about 2001?

[cannon_fodder]

Re: Two tones?

I don't hate 2-tone users and certainly don't discriminate against them on the field as some of them are better players than me . 2-tones do make me sad because they do weaken our defense and tend to be a poorly researched first buy (2-tone L96 as a first gun anyone??)

From MY experience 2-toners (IF users)on the skirmish field tend to be in the 16-18 bracket who are new to airsoft proving that 2-tones are a loop-hole to get around the VCRA. First time 15-18 year olds can skirmish on there own with no parent present but rarely have access to an over 18 player who can gift them a RIF. Last time I played there was a group of first time players ,all 15-17 year old cadets with brand new 2-tones. They had 1 mag each and no face masks. I happily lent them some mags and a face mask as did other players but at the end of play 2 out of the 4 AEGs were broke and the L96 user hadn't made a single 'Kill'

Funnily the MAJORITY of 12-15 year old players tend to have RIFs. This is because if you start playing at 12 then most sites will insist on an over 18 guardian to play with you. AS they know an adult who plays they will have access to RIFs as Christmas and Birthday presents. In fact I can't think of any player at my local who is under 15 and has a 2-tone.



@stevensniper.
Not everyone is OK with resprayed 2-tones. Some people believe that even if they are sprayed by someone with a defense, the act of conversion is not in the spirit of the defense. Some sites will not let you use a sprayed 2-tone. If you advertised an Ex-2-tone without declaring it then you are defrauding the buyer. The reason you didn't mention it is that you know it takes at least 30% off the value. If you didn't know then you are a fool. You may not agree but that makes no difference.


Katie Price may love her bright pink Range Rover but even she must know it will screw the resale value.
If you do a Camo respray you reduce the value of your AEG unless you can fine a buyer who is specifically after a camo job.
If you sell a 2-tone then your ONLY buyers will be the parents of 16-18 year olds as ANYONE who is over 18 AND skirmishes AND buys a 2-tone is an idiot!!!

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Two tones?

shops cant sell guns to under 18. (i beleive air rifles are 17...not 100% sure)
so how...regardless of membership with a site,is an under 18 supposed to get guns.by saying that you cant legally buy a gun,but you can have the defence to buy one is a bit silly and misleading.having somone else buy them for them is one way...but legally the u18 cannot buy it....so whats the point of having a defence that allows you to purchase somthing that is against the law for you to buy anyway because of your age.
again....the vcra2007 has stuff in it,but what about the laws that were already in place about buying guns and the age of the purchaser.
the person purchasing the gun must prove to the shop they have the defence(or whichever way you want to word it)
but the shop wont sell to an u18...............its a contradiction in itself.

No one needs a defence to buy a RIF. The VCRA makes SALE illegal, so it's the seller that needs a defence.
The way the law is written implies that allowing gifting of RIFs was intended - it would have been VERY easy to have avoided that "loophole". They did it for airguns, so you should ask yourself why they didn't do it for IFs/RIFs...

[Caveira]

Re: Two tones?

shops cant sell guns to under 18. (i beleive air rifles are 17...not 100% sure)
so how...regardless of membership with a site,is an under 18 supposed to get guns.by saying that you cant legally buy a gun,but you can have the defence to buy one is a bit silly and misleading.having somone else buy them for them is one way...but legally the u18 cannot buy it....so whats the point of having a defence that allows you to purchase somthing that is against the law for you to buy anyway because of your age.
again....the vcra2007 has stuff in it,but what about the laws that were already in place about buying guns and the age of the purchaser.
the person purchasing the gun must prove to the shop they have the defence(or whichever way you want to word it)
but the shop wont sell to an u18...............its a contradiction in itself.

A suggestion for you:

Get a dictionary.

Open it up.

Look up VCRA.

Use the dictionary to work out what all the big confusing words mean.

Try to work out the difference between the numbers 36 and 40.

Come back when you've done your homework.


FFS, the defence is against more than just buying/selling. It's against all the offences in section 36, but not against section 40 which covers age. So, put in words that are as short as possible for you, an under-18 cannot purchase as that also breaches section 40, but they can do all the other things that are in section 36. That is what the law says, but a court may interpret things differently if and when a case comes to trial. In the meanwhile, all we can do is go on the strict wording of the law.

The defence is not in VCRA, it's in the imitation firearms regulations. Those regulations give us our defence against section 36 and do not mention age in any way. They also don't give us any defence against section 40. They do say that to take advantage of the defence you must be a player at a site that has third party liability insurance, but does not say anywhere that you must actually be a site member. 3 games in no less than 2 months and membership at a site are UKARA requirements.

[magslap]

Re: Two tones?

No one needs a defence to buy a RIF. The VCRA makes SALE illegal, so it's the seller that needs a defence.
The way the law is written implies that allowing gifting of RIFs was intended - it would have been VERY easy to have avoided that "loophole". They did it for airguns, so you should ask yourself why they didn't do it for IFs/RIFs...

i earnt the defence,the shop uses it to keep himself legal....doesnt matter how you try to word,its the same thing.

whatever you argue,an u18 cannot have a defence ,because if they did,it would contradict the law that says u18 cant buy(or be sold ) guns .
so having a defence and being under 18 is about as much use as a rat in tampon factory.they can be gifted a rif....but where that rif must come from should be somone 18 or over with a valid defence.