Is this legal

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but it's become clear. We're not aloud to have separate opinions and we must all share the same views. Policing our own sport is something we shouldn't even attempt to do if it jeopardizes it in the long run clearly.




God what are we Tories or something? I can actually feel my brain hemorrhaging through all this coming and going.

Derp.

[BAMF]

Re: Is this legal

This is a moot point, because the licencing law specifically states supplying alcohol, as well as sale, to a minor is an offence. The VCRA only prohibits sale of IFs to minors.

You are correct in principal, that the laws surrounding licencing creates specific offences regarding the sale of alcohol to minors. However, there was a period in time that this was not the case. "How did we go from one state of affairs, to the other state of affairs?" as the great Baldric once commented.

Well...let me tell you. People got so peeved with children doing something that adults thought they shouldn't be doing that somebody complained about it. The result is where we are today, after a number of test cases and debate.

Sound familiar?

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

If you had bothered to actually read any of my posts, then you would know why I believed it was "Wrong tho" as you so succinctly put it.

If you don't know why, but have managed to get to a stage in your life where you have subscribed to an internet forum surrounding the sport of replica imitation firearms and shooting other people and you're able to quote UK legislation somewhat verbatim as though it were copied and pasted from the pertinent site. Then I must say "I'm not here to wipe your rear-end for you...virtually or otherwise"

You appear readily available to understand and interpret complex legislative text, but a simple post on an internet forum seems to confound you? You have read through my post, yet merely quote one line from it? My beliefs are my beliefs. The day I have to justify them to a stranger on the internet without just cause is the day I hang my keyboard warrior status up and donate my substantial earnings to a worthless endeavour.

You tell us (without looking at Google or your textbooks) "Why is it right though?"

I have read your posts. Most of them don't really have anything to do with the topic at hand and seem to be more about your thoughts on those you describe as "pseudo-solicitors". I don't actually see in any of your responses any sort of explanation as to why you believe Xsites actions to be wrong, simply that you believe they are. It's not that your post has confounded me, it's that I was interested in why exactly you believe it's wrong for minor to be given a RIF if they have gone through the same process as an adult? I would have quoted more from your post if I felt it added anything to the query I was making but the one line I used was sufficient for the purpose. At the end of the day if you don't want to explain your beliefs then that's your prerogative but it makes for quite a dull discussion if we all just set out our beliefs and then left it at that.

As for 'why is it right' for Xsite to do what they're doing I don't believe that minors should be discriminated against in situations where they can demonstrate themselves to be as responsible as an adult. If a minor goes through the same process as an adult to show that they are interested in skirmishing and their parents are happy to purchase them a RIF on their behalf (after having the legislation around RIFs explained to them at the time of the sale) then I don't see any reason why that should be prohibited. I also don't like the concept of a two tier sport where parts of the community are discriminated against simply because of their age, especially when age is no guarantee of responsibility. It's not like Xsite are selling RIFs to any minor who rolls up, they've put safeguards in place to limit sales to ensure RIFs only end up in the hands of those minors they are satisfied will act responsibly. And then on top of that there's the fact that the law doesn't actually prevent the purchase of a RIF or an IF by an adult on behalf of a minor, nor does it prevent a minor owning a RIF.

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but it's become clear. We're not aloud to have separate opinions and we must all share the same views. Policing our own sport is something we shouldn't even attempt to do if it jeopardizes it in the long run clearly.

You can have your own opinion and it'd be a rubbish discussion if people didn't have different opinions. But you should be prepared to be able to expand upon and defend your opinion during a discussion.

[Caveira]

Re: Is this legal

That may well be the case but it does fit with how the law was interpreted by the legal counsel Tim recieved before putting the system in place.

Exactly, and I'm not suggesting that he didn't recieve this advice, but it was HIS council. Paid by him to find a defence, or to make his intended defence fit with one possible interpretation of the law. Only a judge can decide for sure.

As BAMF has quite clearly said (from having been in the position himself), defence council and prosecution council will both look at the same facts and argue their cases from polar opposites. A council's opinion is just that; their educated opinion as to what they believe the outcome would be if they took the case to trial. If this does go to trial Tim's brief will get to find out.

Anyone who thinks that just the written law will be taken into account needs to talk to a Miss Jones and Mr Kernott. They had a case in the supreme court last month which was decided against decades of precedent and against the strict wording of family and property law. Judges do funny things sometimes when they decide to do what they believe is right, rather than what the law strictly states.

And then on top of that there's the fact that the law doesn't actually prevent the purchase of a RIF or an IF by an adult on behalf of a minor

Here you go again, saying that this is a FACT when the whole purpose of this thread is a discussion about how this may not actually be a fact. Even Tim has acknowledged that clarification is required, so why do you keep banging on about FACTS when what you have is a belief in one of the possible interpretations?

[BAMF]

Re: Is this legal

Well, Bravo Fil!

That is quite possibly the first post I have read from you that doesn't look as though it were merely copied and pasted from a poular Wiki site.

That you don't believe minors should be discriminated against is a commendable attitude, but in this great wide world of ours we can't all have things the way we'd like unfortunately. Laws are there for a reason. Kids can't drink, drive, vote, join the Armed forces, get married or have sex until they reach a certain age for a reason. That reason is because we adults (responsible or otherwise) have decreed that they are not suitable to do those things yet, due to their immaturity and inability to deal with certain situations responsibly.

As I'm reasonably certain I've mentioned before. The law isn't quite as black and white as you and your "Learned colleague" would like to believe. If it would please the forum M'Lud, may I present a scenario?

Jolly good. Zeroin state in their rules that a person must be over 18 to purchase any gun, be that a RIF or even an IF. Anybody found to be breaching that rule is lumbered with an "Under 18" user tag. "Why is this?" people might ask. "Aren't they merely discriminating against minors?"

No...they aren't. Why? This is how they (and many others) interpret the law.

If you were selling a gun via this forum for instance and a child approached you and asked to purchase it, would you sell them it? If they told you that they would get their parents or guardian to buy it on their behalf, would you still sell to them?

I wouldn't and I believe the majority of members on here wouldn't either. Why? I'll tell you why...it is against the law as I (and many others) see it. Children may not purchase guns and people who aren't able to avail themselves of a specific defence against the VCRA may not buy them either.

If Tim at Xsite wishes to be the "Guinea-Pig" for the test case in law, then that is his lookout. I can tell you now though that I have nicked many, many people who are confident in their actions and maintain that what they are doing is right. Though as I previously stated, I would not pursue a case against a person if I felt it would not hold water.

My stance on this matter? I would happily take the stand in court and debate the case with a judge. Would you?

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

I have read your posts. Most of them don't really have anything to do with the topic at hand and seem to be more about your thoughts on those you describe as "pseudo-solicitors". I don't actually see in any of your responses any sort of explanation as to why you believe Xsites actions to be wrong, simply that you believe they are. It's not that your post has confounded me, it's that I was interested in why exactly you believe it's wrong for minor to be given a RIF if they have gone through the same process as an adult? I would have quoted more from your post if I felt it added anything to the query I was making but the one line I used was sufficient for the purpose. At the end of the day if you don't want to explain your beliefs then that's your prerogative but it makes for quite a dull discussion if we all just set out our beliefs and then left it at that.

As for 'why is it right' for Xsite to do what they're doing I don't believe that minors should be discriminated against in situations where they can demonstrate themselves to be as responsible as an adult. If a minor goes through the same process as an adult to show that they are interested in skirmishing and their parents are happy to purchase them a RIF on their behalf (after having the legislation around RIFs explained to them at the time of the sale) then I don't see any reason why that should be prohibited. I also don't like the concept of a two tier sport where parts of the community are discriminated against simply because of their age, especially when age is no guarantee of responsibility. It's not like Xsite are selling RIFs to any minor who rolls up, they've put safeguards in place to limit sales to ensure RIFs only end up in the hands of those minors they are satisfied will act responsibly. And then on top of that there's the fact that the law doesn't actually prevent the purchase of a RIF or an IF by an adult on behalf of a minor, nor does it prevent a minor owning a RIF.



You can have your own opinion and it'd be a rubbish discussion if people didn't have different opinions. But you should be prepared to be able to expand upon and defend your opinion during a discussion.

The difference between opinion at least in this thread is a lot of people (read you) seem to state your opinion as fact. None of us know truly what is accurate and that is why we are waiting for written confirmation from the home office. I've posted my personal feelings on this subject and to add to this, if the sale of a real firearm was to be made (point of sale going to the person who buys the firearm) they would be the legal owner of said weapon.

Point of sale is thing that confuses this and the fact that no other retailer seems to of adopted the same policy is also a subject of question.

Also to add to this if a firearms offense is committed by a child they are not tried as an adult, as has been stated earlier on in the thread. The reason we don't try children as adults for most if crimes is because they are not emotional mature enough to completely understand the actions that they take. These are also the reasons we don't allow children under 18 to purchase certain things or do certain things.

[Caveira]

Re: Is this legal

My stance on this matter? I would happily take the stand in court and debate the case with a judge. Would you?

Perhaps more importantly, how many of you who are blindly defending this would be happy to tell Mothers Against Guns or the daily mail about the xsite scheme?

[BAMF]

Re: Is this legal

Perhaps more importantly, how many of you who are blindly defending this would be happy to tell Mothers Against Guns or the daily mail about the xsite scheme?

I would (and possibly may do), but would that bring our sport into disrepute? Yes. Who would be the bad guy in this situation? BAMF, of course, because he shouldn't have said anything. It wouldn't be anybody at a site that is selling guns to minors that would be to blame, because they've cleared it with the Home Secretary. Though when questioned, I'd imagine the Home Secretary would have something to say on the matter.

Why don't we just have done with it all and instead of sending kids to school, just tool them all up and fly them out to Afghanistan? That way, we wouldn't be discriminating against them and they could play with guns to their hearts content!

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

If the Mothers Against Guns found out about this I'm sure they'd try something in their typically backwards way. "I got my child to skirmish for a few months and bought the gun myself without needing anything to do so! Let's get these scum of the street!!"

[baddbaz]

Re: Is this legal

madness will deecend on all of us with this thread ............ hand out the prozac to all the participants ..... goverment should of attached a mental health warning to the vcra bill .....

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

Well, Bravo Fil!

That is quite possibly the first post I have read from you that doesn't look as though it were merely copied and pasted from a poular Wiki site.

I'm intrigued by this, perhaps you could provide me with an example of a post I've made in this thread that looks like it's been copied and pasted from a wiki site, popular or otherwise? I will admit that when discussing certain parts of the legislation I have used the same wording as the legislation but why rewrite something when the original is what I want to talk about?

That you don't believe minors should be discriminated against is a commendable attitude, but in this great wide world of ours we can't all have things the way we'd like unfortunately. Laws are there for a reason. Kids can't drink, drive, vote, join the Armed forces, get married or have sex until they reach a certain age for a reason. That reason is because we adults (responsible or otherwise) have decreed that they are not suitable to do those things yet, due to their immaturity and inability to deal with certain situations responsibly.

Except the law hasn't decreed that children are too immature or unable to deal with playing airsoft. Nor does it appear that the majority of people have any issue with a child being gifted an IF or a RIF by an adult who has a UKARA registration or site membership. So what is the issue here? Is it that children are too immature/irresponsible to have a RIF? In which case they shouldn't have an IF either and there should be something in law making it an offence for a minor to own either a RIF or an IF (and failing that the airsoft community should be doing all it can to keep RIFs and IFs out of the hands of children). Or is that the person buying the RIF isn't registered with UKARA or has a site membership?

As I'm reasonably certain I've mentioned before. The law isn't quite as black and white as you and your "Learned colleague" would like to believe. If it would please the forum M'Lud, may I present a scenario?

Jolly good. Zeroin state in their rules that a person must be over 18 to purchase any gun, be that a RIF or even an IF. Anybody found to be breaching that rule is lumbered with an "Under 18" user tag. "Why is this?" people might ask. "Aren't they merely discriminating against minors?"

No...they aren't. Why? This is how they (and many others) interpret the law.

I would interpret the law in exactly the same way, mainly because it's quite clear in that it's an offence to sell an imitation firearm to a minor. There's no issue of discrimination in applying a rule preventing those under 18 purchasing a gun through this forum or marking their account with an "Under 18" tag if they're found to be trying to do so, it's simply complying with the law.

If you were selling a gun via this forum for instance and a child approached you and asked to purchase it, would you sell them it? If they told you that they would get their parents or guardian to buy it on their behalf, would you still sell to them?

I wouldn't and I believe the majority of members on here wouldn't either. Why? I'll tell you why...it is against the law as I (and many others) see it. Children may not purchase guns and people who aren't able to avail themselves of a specific defence against the VCRA may not buy them either.

No I wouldn't sell it to them. To do so directly would be a offence under section 40 and to sell to a claimed parent/guardian online would likely leave me unsatisfied about my own defence against a section 36 offence. However if i'd been attending the same site as a minor, had played with them on several occasions and was satisfied that they could be responsible and with my own defence then i'd sell a RIF face to face to their parent or guardian.

Can I ask you a question now? Same scenario but with the parent/guardian being registered with UKARA. Would you sell a RIF to the parent/guardian after being approached by the child who wanted to buy it?

If Tim at Xsite wishes to be the "Guinea-Pig" for the test case in law, then that is his lookout. I can tell you now though that I have nicked many, many people who are confident in their actions and maintain that what they are doing is right. Though as I previously stated, I would not pursue a case against a person if I felt it would not hold water.

My stance on this matter? I would happily take the stand in court and debate the case with a judge. Would you?

Yes.

[AlexLM]

Re: Is this legal

I think what we can all agree is that the entire firearms section of the VCRA was yet more ridiculous, typical British anti-gun panic legislation that deserves to be burnt in a fire on Westminster's front lawn.

What exactly is being discussed here? Wether or not Xsite's actions are legal? I lost track back on page one somewhere

[bill1310]

Re: Is this legal

god is this bloody thread still going

[BAMF]

Re: Is this legal

Can I ask you a question now? Same scenario but with the parent/guardian being registered with UKARA. Would you sell a RIF to the parent/guardian after being approached by the child who wanted to buy it?

Would I sell to a prent/Guardian of a child if the parent/guardian was able to provide me with information that they were UKARA registered? Yes, of course. Would I sell them it if they told me it was to be a gift for their child? Yes, as I wouldn't be selling to a child, nor would I be selling to somebody who isn't able to avail themself of a specific defence agsinst the VCRA.

Your point?

[Q]

Re: Is this legal

no legislation that stops them manufacturing a rif

Except perhaps - s36(1)b VCRA

36 Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;
(b) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation
firearm;