Is this legal

[V.A.K]

Re: Is this legal

i can think of a few that run both sites and shops for example zeroone

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

" The VCR act introduced in October 2007 restricts the sale of replica weapons. Nobody under 18 can purchase any sort of imitation firearm and therefore we do not sell to under 18's. We also only sell realistic imitations to holders of current airsoft skirmishing site memberships, UKARA affiliated site members or AFRA members. Before placing an order for a RIF please furnish us with proof of your membership. See the VCR Act Buyers guide for more information."


youll find things like this on most airsoft shop websites.

[N_Scooby]

Re: Is this legal

My personal opinion is that no-one under 18 should be allowed a RIF or even an IF. Like so many other things in life they should have to wait until they are old enough - sorry but life is that way. Just today in my local paper there is yet another story about a teenager with a 'BB Gun'. Because he is a youngster he basically got treated lightly. If you are over 18 and commit a robbery with an immatation firearm that still counts as Armed Robbery which carries a life sentence.

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/new...rs_of_mobiles/

I don't believe children should have access to RIF's. I also know that a lot of over 18's are still not mature enough yet - but they can be tried as an adult in a court of law.

[BAMF]

Re: Is this legal

I wonder how many of those quoting the law and making verbatim references and making out that those quotes and references are how law is interpreted actually have a working knowledge of the law, or are they just students of the same?

If they have a working knowldge, which section is it in? If they are conveyancing for an estate agent (for instance), their understanding of the law is only within very specific areas. If they are practicing legal barristers, then I certainly would defer to their superior knowledge.

If, however, they are only students, or are Google solicitors, then they really shouldn't be espousing their limited knowledge as fact. If they have ever stood up in a court of law and presented a case and have given a watertight representation of the facts (as they understand it) only for the other side to tear holes in their reasoning (without the benefit of study notes or Google), then they should be aware that there are people out there that will stand them on their head while pulling their trousers down and spanking their bare backsides publicly!

I have been in the position I describe and can categorically state that it isn't a pleasant experience, after thinking I knew better. I will only ever nick somebody if I can ensure their guilt by applying what used to be known as the "Reasonable person test." That is to say, what a reasonable person would assume to be expectant within law and what their understanding of the matter would be, i.e: would a reasonable person know this action to be right from wrong?

I made my initial comment on this thread by applying this standpoint. I believe what Xsite are doing to be wrong (as do, I belive 99.9% of the airsofting community) as it is wrong for a responsible retailer to supply children with RIFs via a third party (their parent or guardian). Somebody made the analogy of people buying alcohol for children. This is a criminal offence. Simply because a case has not been brought before the courts of an adult supplying a RIF to a child doesn't mean it's right.

We are at a point here where there is something of a "Mexican standoff" whereby, Xsite are (I believe) endangering the sport by carrying out this junior membership venture and the responsible airsofters who think Tim is wrong and wish to report this activity to the relevant authorities.

If he is allowed to continue and it isn't reported, the sport is safe, as the general public will never find out about it. If, however, the activity is reported and the sport comes under scrutiny after all of the hard work that Tim himself and many others put into it and there is an offence identified. Where does that leave the person(s) who made the report? Are they the ones who should be castigated because it was all going well until they reported it? I don't belive so.

The facts of the matter are this; Tim at Xsite believes he is doing nothing wrong with selling RIFs to people who don't qualify for a defence and are passing these RIFs to children who have a junior membership at his site. There are people who are quoting the VCRA and related defences verbatim, reasoning that as that is the law, that's how it is. There are others who believe children should have access to IFs, as has historically happened, as long as they have been gifted them. There are also people who have been at these Home Office meetings (along with Tim) that suggest Xsite are subverting the discussions and if a test case were brought, then the sport will be endangered.

As I state, personally, I think it's wrong, but this will only ever be proven in a court of law. I wouldn't want the whole sport of airsoft to be brought into disrepute simply because an otherwise responsible retailer/site owner has exploited what they belive to be a loophole in the law. Given the current culture of violence and gun crime in this country, I wouldn't want to be the person defending my position in supplying children with realistic looking guns via a third party.

Would you?

[Caveira]

Re: Is this legal

The fact remains that the written law states "...making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified ..." (RIF is a subset of IF) and DOES NOT specify any prohibitions as to HOW it is made available.

That is one interpretation of the law and relies on strictly separating parts of the act. The home office at the last meeting where this was discussed didn't support that interpretation, which is why xsite are going to contact them for written clarification.

You can post all you like about what you see as "facts", but like everyone else on this thread (myself included as I keep pointing out) you are not a judge being asked to decide on this so you DO NOT KNOW, you only believe.

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

I believe what Xsite are doing to be wrong (as do, I belive 99.9% of the airsofting community) as it is wrong for a responsible retailer to supply children with RIFs via a third party (their parent or guardian).

Why is it wrong tho?

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

Somebody made the analogy of people buying alcohol for children. This is a criminal offence. Simply because a case has not been brought before the courts of an adult supplying a RIF to a child doesn't mean it's right.

This is a moot point, because the licencing law specifically states supplying alcohol, as well as sale, to a minor is an offence. The VCRA only prohibits sale of IFs to minors.

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

This is a moot point, because the licencing law specifically states supplying alcohol, as well as sale, to a minor is an offence. The VCRA only prohibits sale of IFs to minors.

and why would it prohibit sales of if's to minors...........is it because it wants us to find another way to supply them.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

That is one interpretation of the law and relies on strictly separating parts of the act. The home office at the last meeting where this was discussed didn't support that interpretation, which is why xsite are going to contact them for written clarification.

I'm not separating parts, the VCRA does. The only part that deals with age (WRT IFs) is in section 40, and that is all section 40 is about. The other prohibitions are in section 36, for which UKSI 2007/2606 provides additional defences.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

Round and round and around we go, will it stop? No.

[Caveira]

Re: Is this legal

I can't find words to express my disbelief at the arrogance of some people on this thread. They have people with experience of arguing cases and giving evidence in court telling them that it's not just the words used in the act (etc), but also the intention of parliament and all the relevant documents when taken in their entirety, and they still keep going on about one specific point and it's strict wording, then ignoring every other part of the issue.

The people who do have experience of arguing cases, and giving evidence in court, are saying that they acknowledge that the way they see it may be wrong. Even Tim is willing to accept that he might be wrong, though he believes that he is correct, and is willing to get clarification. What is it that makes you (and, yes, you know who I mean) think that you see the ONLY possible outcome of this?

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

Round and round and around we go, will it stop? No.

See my post #237.
http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/showthrea...549#post900549

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's...e_in_My_Bucket

[JordanH]

Re: Is this legal

My personal opinion is that no-one under 18 should be allowed a RIF or even an IF. Like so many other things in life they should have to wait until they are old enough - sorry but life is that way. Just today in my local paper there is yet another story about a teenager with a 'BB Gun'. Because he is a youngster he basically got treated lightly. If you are over 18 and commit a robbery with an immatation firearm that still counts as Armed Robbery which carries a life sentence.

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/new...rs_of_mobiles/

I don't believe children should have access to RIF's. I also know that a lot of over 18's are still not mature enough yet - but they can be tried as an adult in a court of law.

How are we suppose to keep the sport alive then ? I know if i had to wait until i was 18 to even buy/be gifted a IF then i wouldn't play airsoft as hiring at every game is just too expensive.

Also again why are people still questing this when X-Site have said multiple times this is all within the law ? I'am new to these forums but not new to airsoft, i don't know about anyone else but this is really annoying, X-Site come on and tell you "Yes, this is all legal and with in the law" then someone starts moaning about how it shouldn't be and how/why they thing it is wrong.................... ?
(This is just what i think of this thread)

[Caveira]

Re: Is this legal

Also again why are people still questing this when X-Site have said multiple times this is all within the law ? I'am new to these forums but not new to airsoft, i don't know about anyone else but this is really annoying, X-Site come on and tell you 'Yes, this is all legal and with in the law' then someone starts moaning about how it shouldn't be and it wrong.................... ?

And we're supposed to sit back and accept that when the other interpretation is that they're wrong and may well be the very thing that endangers the sport? Are xsite the courts? Are they the home office?

They might be right, they might be wrong, but at least now this is going to be taken to the home office for clarification.

[JordanH]

Re: Is this legal

And we're supposed to sit back and accept that when the other interpretation is that they're wrong and may well be the very thing that endangers the sport? Are xsite the courts? Are they the home office?

They might be right, they might be wrong, but at least now this is going to be taken to the home office for clarification.

Even though i'am sure Tim has said he has already contacted the HO and they have given him the all clear.