Is this legal

[jediknight129]

Re: Is this legal

plus of course it could be seen as a blatant attempt to get round the law.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

They can but they should be able to present a reasoned argument for why they think that to be the case.



If you've purchased the gun then I don't see what difference it makes if it remains in the care of someone else or not for the purposes of the defence. The defence has to be applicable at the time the sale is made, not at some later point when the retailer deems you can take the gun home.

The fact that sale is made and the weapon is held on the grounds of which is it purchased is the big difference. You still have to earn the right to take the weapon home with you and use it on other sites. You never take full ownership until you've passed the yada yada yada you know the deal.

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

The fact that sale is made and the weapon is held on the grounds of which is it purchased is the big difference.

I disagree, there's absolutely no distinction under the law for that. The law is that it's an offence to sell a RIF without an applicable defence. It's not that it's an offence to sell a RIF without an applicable defence unless you keep hold of the RIF until such a time as you can satisfy a defence.

You still have to earn the right to take the weapon home with you and use it on other sites. You never take full ownership until you've passed the yada yada yada you know the deal.

If the sale has been made then the provisions of the VCRA apply. The fact that you may not take the gun home and only use it at ****** site until such a time as they deem you can take it away is irrelevant. ****** have sold you a RIF and as such they need to have satisfied one of the defences set out in the VCRA (and associated regulations) at the time the sale was made.

[Caveira]

Re: Is this legal

You never take full ownership until you've passed the yada yada yada you know the deal.

Very questionable legally. The act says purchase, not take possession of. Plus, if you own it, they cannot legally stop you from taking it with you as title has passed on receipt of the the money.

I thought this system worked on a hire purchase system. You rent it for 3 games then make a final small payment and it becomes yours. That would be legal as there is loads of case law supporting hire purchasors not being owners until after the final option to purchase payment.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

Very questionable legally. The act says purchase, not take possession of. Plus, if you own it, they cannot legally stop you from taking it with you as title has passed on receipt of the the money.

I thought this system worked on a hire purchase system. You rent it for 3 games then make a final small payment and it becomes yours. That would be legal as there is loads of case law supporting hire purchasors not being owners until after the final option to purchase payment.

That is what they do, deposit on the RIF first and the final payment when you've passed the quota. Apologies for any confusion, I'm still suffering from an extreme day of drinking and my concentration is about as high as George W Bush'.

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

That is what they do, deposit on the RIF first and the final payment when you've passed the quota.

How much of the price are you paying as a deposit? And how much is the final payment? Are there any monthly installments? Are you required to sign a contract with **** ********* setting out the terms of credit?

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

They can but they should be able to present a reasoned argument for why they think that to be the case.

He's referring to me, and I have stated my reasons several times, backed by the letter of the law - unlike those saying it's illegal, based by UKARA's incomplete interpretation of the law.

If you've purchased the gun then I don't see what difference it makes if it remains in the care of someone else or not for the purposes of the defence. The defence has to be applicable at the time the sale is made, not at some later point when the retailer deems you can take the gun home.

But as the gun isn't officially turned over to the customer until the requirements are met, the sale isn't legally completed.

But then we come back on topic in that they are supplying it for "permitted activities" etc.

[Xsite]

Re: Is this legal

someone mentioned 'technically legal' above, they see the Xsite system as 'technically legal' I can accept how theey get that conclusion, what peaves me is how others aren't allowed to state they think it is TECHNICALLY illegal,

I'm glad Xsite is taking steps to get clarification on this, but what happens if the home office say it is infact illegal to do so?

If the HO say it's illegal we would stop.

We would then sell more 2 tones and the juniors wold have to paint them. Same end result, a junior ends up with a rif, slightly different way of getting there.

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

If the HO say it's illegal we would stop.

We would then sell more 2 tones and the juniors wold have to paint them. Same end result, a junior ends up with a rif, slightly different way of getting there.

i thought you said you "vetted" junior members......now your saying the same junior gets dad to buy a 2 tone,sprays it black,and you allow them back on your site knowing what they have done? am i missing somthing here?

[Caveira]

Re: Is this legal

i thought you said you "vetted" junior members......now your saying the same junior gets dad to buy a 2 tone,sprays it black,and you allow them back on your site knowing what they have done? am i missing somthing here?

Why not?

The only age restriction is in relation to sales, there's nothing to say a young player who qualifies for the defence can't convert a two tone to a RIF.

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

oh...ok ,my bad

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

"There's a hole in my bucket..."

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

How much of the price are you paying as a deposit? And how much is the final payment? Are there any monthly installments? Are you required to sign a contract with **** ********* setting out the terms of credit?

I think there is a contract that is set out by terms of credit. I'm not sure not having used the scheme myself. Take a look on the website as they have a full set of T&C for their scheme. Obviously the difference between putting a deposit down and making a full payment is ownership. Until you've paid in full (which they don't allow you to do in this case) you don't know the entire item.

[madwelshman]

Re: Is this legal

Regardless of how the rules have been interpreted/bent, its not our place to judge... let UKara decide if thier guidelines have been broken as xsite proudly displays thier banner under thier interpretation of the vcr bill.

Seems strange to me that every other retailer in the country two tones guns for under 18's... they must all be confused then!

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

Seems strange to me that every other retailer in the country two tones guns for under 18's... they must all be confused then!

It's not confusion, it's about not wanting to go down that road. No one HAS to sell anything to anyone.
e.g. if a retailer wanted to, he could say he'll ONLY sell to UKARA-registered players. No matter how much complaining anyone does about that not being a legal requirement, if that's his policy, there's NOTHING you can do about it.

Also, how many of those retailers also run a site, and so have DIRECT experience of who they are dealing with?

The fact remains that the written law states "...making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified ..." (RIF is a subset of IF) and DOES NOT specify any prohibitions as to HOW it is made available.