BFG Ban ?

[cracking day]

Re: BFG Ban ?

I raised this with our insurers over a year ago, we had asked for them to be included on our policy, having called them today it was never actioned, although agreed verbally, this is old news to me, we just watch the players and absorb the risk.

Pli is not a legal requirement and many people confuse it with personal accident insurance, it's covering my ass not yours!

[Lunchbreak]

Re: BFG Ban ?

Sorry 4 leaf, I'm not with you there. Wacking a 500 fps spring in an AEG and then taking it to a CQB site and shooting with it requires some premeditation and wilful flouting of common sense rules, and should be severly punished. Getting carried away with a BFG throw should be heavily discouraged, but it's much more understandable if it goes tits up and somebody gets slightly injured, as it's often a spur of the moment thing.

I suppose I have a different attitude to rules than you, and often choose to ignore the daft ones that don't suit me, or make sense. I'm not saying that's right, just admitting to it! Having said that it's about time lairy BFG throwers were made to change their ways by having it rammed down their necks when they start making risky throws.

I hope we get this blip sorted out, get to keep BFG's, and see some more responsible use of them from the minority that get carried away and throw dangerously.

[M4 killa]

Re: BFG Ban ?

(Quote) So if someone decided to change the spring in their AEG to shoot 500 FPS and then shot you in CQB, breaking a few teeth, possibly embedding BB's in your cheek and lips, scarring you for life.(Quote)

Thats why i follow common sense in a "dangerous" urban environment and wear full face to protect my pearly whites. and cheeks at that. maybe if this person was wearing full face especially up to the incredible standard and durabliity of hero sharks selection of half and full face masks he would have went home with just a painful nose and jaw not a broken one. So maybe we should start enforcing full face in airsoft if that's where your going?

[BB_Hose]

Re: BFG Ban ?

Just my two cents here guys
At my local about 2 months ago, a bfg was thrown (underarm, pretty carefully) into a room we were breeching and it landed right under someones chin who was prone covering the doorway. Now, it was a one in a million throw, just unlucky and no fault to any of the parties involved, but it just goes to show that in the right circumstances these things CAN be dangerous. I think we all get too accustomed to these grenades some of us have been using for years and forget that they can acctually cause damage. The guy was pretty shaken up and he had to take a minuite out as he wasnt in any position to carry on playing, but lucky in 5 minuites he was back on his feet and playing albiet with a killer headache im sure.
Im not here to endorse insurance companies or sueing, quite the opposite; but i do think that they can be dangerous even in the right hands. Even though with the guy at our site all 'legal action' and 'sueing' etc hadnt even passed his mind as it shouldnt have but i can see why its eventually happened, hell, im surprised it didnt happen sooner.
Like i said, my two cents.

[Boo-Sabum Ben]

Re: BFG Ban ?

How do we know it was a simple bump on the head?
Whats to say the guy isnt scared for life?
Ok you partake in boxing, martial arts, rugby...etc...etc to be beaten sensless on occasion unconcious.
But one person on here tell me they pay there green fee to have lumps of alloy containing blanks lobbed in such a manner that can cause you serious injury??
Any injury from a BB with the exeption of eyes and teeth are covered by PLI, as we have found out a few posts above BFGs may not even be on your sites insurance policy.

What on earth could happen with a BFG that would leave you scarred for life? Everything I do, I fully accept the risks. If someone changed their aeg to a 500FPS spring, and it stuck a bb in my skin, id just give them a good yelling at, and leave it at that.

the ONLY thing I think sueing people should be used for, is if you phsyically lose out on money. Like you cant work. Maybe then, you get the money that you would have earnt. But something like a near death experience, isnt worth a set price in money. And money wont make it go away.

Perhaps its just how I was raised, but if I were to be knocked out by a BFG being chucked up a staircase, id just count that as life experience, rather than pretend that money would make it better. Thats what sweeties are for...

[MarcusLee]

Re: BFG Ban ?

People are different. That guy was well within his rights to make a claim. If I had my nose/ face broken (if that is really what happened) I would be so angry... and usually a monetary reward does dampen the pain, a bit... well more than nothing anyway.

[Blue Sun Merc]

Re: BFG Ban ?

I will say it again - the hurt player DOES NOT NEED TO HAVE CLAIMED for the Insurers to get involved, stop shifting the "blame" for the temporary ban on BFG's away from the irresponsible feckwit who caused the the injury. And consider that if everybody had just carried on as if nothing had happened, your local airsoft site could suddenly being without any insurance at all, when their previous arrangement is terminated for breach of contract (non-disclosure of hazards). No insurance, no site, no game.

This isn't cowboys 'n' injuns in the garden - we use explosives and weapons, and we fire them at people not inanimate objects. Thankfully most of us do so with a little more consideration than "lol ur just bein' a wuss".

[-=256=-Swerve]

Re: BFG Ban ?

+1 to the above

[Caveira]

Re: BFG Ban ?

As said by Blue Sun, there's a legal obligation to report things like this.

The Reporting of Injuries, Deaths and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations (RIDDOR) make it an offence not to report serious injuries, deaths and near misses to Health and Safety. I've worked on some construction sites where the things that happened on a daily basis would make your hair stand on end. OK, H&S can go too far, but having seen someone leaning out of a third floor window with no support except his mate holding onto his belt will make you think safety. I've also seen a banksman get trapped behind a reversing lorry only to breathalysed and sacked when it turned out he was working drunk.

We may not see a BFG injury as serious, but just imagine what the H&S exec would think when they heard that someone was injured by a flying lump of metal containing a small explosive charge.


As said by Jag, the waivers signed at sites aren't worth the paper they are written on if a person is injured or killed as a result of the negligence of the site owners. As long as the brief made it clear that BFGs should not be thrown hard (etc), and they ensured all players attended the brief, then the site are protected (if there was a disclaimer). The person who threw it, though, could be taken to court.

While I can see what Boo is saying, don't forget that some people rely on not having facial injuries such as a broken nose for their career. A friend had his nose broken during Ju-Jitsu training and his employer made him take nearly a month off from work unpaid as they were not willing to let him visit high-value clients looking like he'd been in a pub fight.

[Four Leaf]

Re: BFG Ban ?

What can a BFG do that can scar you for life ?

While in this incident a couple of broken bones was the worst, if the blank had gone off at point of impact it could have blinded the guy. I'd call that being scarred for life. I know my goggles are safe to be hit by a 600 FPS BB, but it doesn't say anything about 9mm blanks and I'd rather not find out if it would protect me or not.

Ok point taken, comparing a person shooting hot to throwing a BFG might be a different thing altogether, but I still stand by the "Rules are rules if we like it or not".

Someone has ignored / lost themselves in the moment and right now it means that BFG's are under question.

And +1 to Blue Merc and Robin for pointing out again that no one has said anything about a claim, we dont even know what the injured party did, but the incident still needs to be reported to the insurance people.

[xX-Sneaky-Pete-Xx]

Re: BFG Ban ?

I believe that somewhere on this forum someone's bfg exploded into several pieces, and that it was a newish bfg aswell. I'm sure if those bits hit you at close range, it could do some sort of injure.

[Crysis]

Yeh and an aeg blowing up can injure but it's rare.

It should have been reported but if it was a minor claim shouldn't be anything to worry about.

It's like using mortars some sites allow them and yeh it may be a smoke but if u get hit on the head its gonna hurt.

People should learn self control... Underarm shots I feel can be more effective . Less likely to bouncy off something!

[JOE90]

Re: BFG Ban ?

We had best hope that they don't go down the same route as they do for construction, you can't fart outside the toilet block unless you've been trained to do so.

Brilliant lol

[felix_jaegar]

Re: BFG Ban ?

While playing at F&O Anzio yesterday during the safety brief the marshals said that BFG's were currently banned across all airsoft sites.

When I asked why, apparently someone threw one a BFG, and not an underarm, it was a proper heft, and it copped a guy in the face breaking his nose and cracking a cheekbone.

Please can you inform me which marshal told you this via PM, as it is not the story myself or my senior colleagues are aware of.

[Doubletap]

Re: BFG Ban ?

As the club I run has been named on this thread along with talk of an incident and BFG's being banned I thought I'd better give you the facts.

I'll refer to the insurance company but not name them, those who need to know already know who they are.

An incident happened at one of our sites 18 months ago, it was an accident pure and simple. A player got what can only be described as a superficial burn on his arm when a BFG went off. It was thrown underarm and wasn’t intended to get so close but it landed on a mound of earth and bounced back up, the player involved said that if he stood there all day he couldn’t make that happen again and the insurance assessor agrees with that. The fact that the injured player then decided to try to make a fast buck out of it is unfortunate, it is his right to do so but my view is we play this game knowing that we will get injured to some extent, whether that’s a BB strike or something worse, injury on some level is part of the game. It is also a game based on honesty and integrity but that soon went out of the window when he thought he could have a nice little bag of cash to supplement his dole money.

If someone did get hit in the face with a BFG and got a broken nose etc, I can assure you that it didn’t happen at one of our sites and I haven’t heard that story.

The next thing is that BFG's have NOT been banned by the insurance company as a result of any recent incident. The simple fact is that they've never been mentioned on the policy and according to the insurers that means they're not allowed. The problem is that they list pyrotechnic products and companies which are allowed and apparently everything else is excluded. That's fine but my point to them was that the BFG is not a pyrotechnic device and therefore that list doesn't apply to it. The HSE and the manufacturers do not class it as a pyrotechnic device and it isn't licenced or restricted as such. A 9mm blank is also not pyrotechnic device so while the BFG’s legal definition is unclear it is not legally a pyrotechnic.
The insurance company tried to redefine what is a pyrotechnic as 'something that uses a source of ignition or chemical reaction to create a noise or explosion' I pointed out to them that in that case my car engine is now a pyrotechnic, as is my gas cooker and many other everyday items. There is a perfectly good legal definition and licencing system in place that defines what is a pyrotechnic and the BFG is not included, therefore they shouldn't be trying to make up their own definition to suit themselves.

The fact that the BFG isn't included is clearly ridiculous, the accident we had would have happened just the same or maybe worse with a pea grenade. These things are burning when they’re thrown so the chances of a burn injury must be greater, although thankfully very rare.

I pointed out to the insurers how the BFG is inherently safer than the burning grenades they allow, how they are built to a higher standard, have a controlled and accurate delay, the only heat produced is at the point of ignition etc but they wouldn’t listen.

So, that’s the story of an accident that happened nearly two years ago. Quite why Cerberus Airsoft is mentioned now, alongside talk of BFG’s being banned and people with broken noses is beyond me and frankly out of order.

I’m happy to discuss the finer points with any site operators who need more information and advise them on what we’ve learned from the experience and how the policy wording needs to be changed, but not on a public forum.

I will say that having thoroughly investigated the accident we took the view not to ban BFG’s at our sites. It was a fluke accident and the fact that a BFG was involved had little bearing on it. We do try to discourage BFG use and are strict with the rules of use but we considered it would be unfair to other users to ban them because of one incident. We leave that kind of knee jerk reaction to the politicians. The fact that our insurers don’t recognise or cover the BFG is ridiculous and regrettable but we decided to take the risk, after all, the chances of it happening again are tiny.

So, the fact is the insurers have not banned BFG’s, sites might take a view on them and act accordingly but there is no nationwide ban.