Very high rps... What's the point?

[danhc]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

you dont have to take the extra teeth of the piston, but it saves unneccesary weight

[happyal]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

Unused teeth may be referring to pre engagement issues, when you get pre engagement on a fast build, you tend to need to up the power of your spring in order to return the piston quicker to its seated position. In upping the spring rate it obviously ups the fps above our levels so then the need for short stroking the sector gear and piston comes into play in order to drop the fps back down to site limits, so im giessing this is what he means with he teeth removal as it only then pulls back the piston say 3/4 of the way dropping the fps but keeping the strength in the spring in order to return it faster. If he doesnt mean that then im not sure to be honest.

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the answer. No I don't mean the first teeth for the pre engagement issue. I mean the unused teeth if you are short stroking, or using a DSG.

[Icebass]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the answer. No I don't mean the first teeth for the pre engagement issue. I mean the unused teeth if you are short stroking, or using a DSG.

I'm yet to set up a dsg box, but I have done some research into it, from what i've read people take all the unused teeth off to stop any form of pre engagement. Makes sence to have the same number of teeth on your piston and dsg gear.

[sparrowhawk]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

i took off the unused teeth to reduce weight

[Icebass]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

i took off the unused teeth to reduce weight

Maybe thats it then, as i said all i know about the dsg builds is from what i've read, and we all know how much shite there is out there.

[thekonassure]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

all dsg`s use what ? 7,8 or 9 teeth ? If you get a piston with a full set of metal teeth then taking off any extra is needed as 1 they add weight but also there`s a chance they may brake off and jam up your gearbox or catch or engage with something jamming up your gearbox or causing damage.

As far as that picture of a piston above go`s my guess is putting that in a dsg would not work out too well. Remember to get 330`ish fps your going to need a spring spacer or at least an m150 spring and its going to be moving really fast you want a bit of the piston guides left in the middle and you want some of the top "wall" there still just make lots of holes in the top don`t it all.

I`ve seen sorbo dsg`s work fine with just one of them light shs full metal teeth blue type pistons with just the extra teeth removed infact I think that`s what`s in mine at the moment.

There`s an old thread somewhere with a few dsg piston set ups on it I was looking in my gun pics but I don`t have any I must have them on a flash card or hard drive somewhere if I find them in the next few day`s I`ll post them up.

but yeah just as many holes as you can get in the top a few holes in the side and remove all the teeth on a blue clear`ish full metal teeth piston I think I got the weight down by around 1/3rd so you should be able to get say 1/4 of the weight off without going too crazy.

TBH if you sorbo up there`s no reason to go real crazy if your not using a pot metal gearbox lol

[SilverEx]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

Well my gearbox is throwing out around 40rps on a single sector gear setup, fires flawlessly on both and due to the lack on wear of any of the internals I doubt anything will happen anytime soon.

My reason for wanting such a high speed setup was people not taking their hits, I believe its something that is becoming such a common site in airsoft due to the older "elite" players deciding when they want to respawn because they're way to good to get hit (obviously) and the new kids thinking they're in cod and r 1337....if they want to cheat then they can have a little bit of pain. I also wanted as near instant trigger response as I could get without going down the systema route due to playing at a cqb site.

Should be funny when I eventually go down the dsg route. Then people will really start bitching.

Remind me never to play with you.

High ROF guns are worse than one or two cheaters. I've seen one guy with a ridiculous 30rps+ set up and high caps ruin an entire day for everyone on site that wasn't with him. Luckily he left at dinner time and instantly the mood improved.
Infact I disagree with high rps setups so much I will refuse to build them. You can get good trigger response with a decent mosfet, 7.4v lipo, half decent motor and deans/xt60 connectors with good low resistance wiring. Low trigger response is predominantly caused by the motor not having enough current immediately available to spin up quickly, not by gearbox part weights or gears. If your motor isn't turning optimally then neither is your gearbox. Generally high RPS builds seem to improve this because they incorporate most of the things I've listed anyway and when they don't it's just sheer speed of the parts but that's over all detrimental to your rifle and detrimental to a game and players when you walk around spraying people. Think about it 30(!) rounds per SECOND. In a half second trigger pull you've hit somebody with 15 rounds. 15 rounds! That hurts a lot more than one single shot at 500fps so you do the math and think about the responsibility. I personally want to see ROF limits enforced at sites to stop this as it's just as dangerous as a hot gun if not more so. If you are gonna run a setup like this it should be the same as running a DMR and you should be limited to semi (if trigger response is oh so important to you and the only real reason you build these things). However look at DMR setups and you won't find them building as ROF setup, yet they get amazing trigger response. Go figure.
Mil-sim and semi mil-sim games all the way anyway.

[Icebass]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

Remind me never to play with you.

High ROF guns are worse than one or two cheaters. I've seen one guy with a ridiculous 30rps+ set up and high caps ruin an entire day for everyone on site that wasn't with him. Luckily he left at dinner time and instantly the mood improved.
Infact I disagree with high rps setups so much I will refuse to build them. You can get good trigger response with a decent mosfet, 7.4v lipo, half decent motor and deans/xt60 connectors with good low resistance wiring. Low trigger response is predominantly caused by the motor not having enough current immediately available to spin up quickly, not by gearbox part weights or gears. If your motor isn't turning optimally then neither is your gearbox. Generally high RPS builds seem to improve this because they incorporate most of the things I've listed anyway and when they don't it's just sheer speed of the parts but that's over all detrimental to your rifle and detrimental to a game and players when you walk around spraying people. Think about it 30(!) rounds per SECOND. In a half second trigger pull you've hit somebody with 15 rounds. 15 rounds! That hurts a lot more than one single shot at 500fps so you do the math and think about the responsibility. I personally want to see ROF limits enforced at sites to stop this as it's just as dangerous as a hot gun if not more so. If you are gonna run a setup like this it should be the same as running a DMR and you should be limited to semi (if trigger response is oh so important to you and the only real reason you build these things). However look at DMR setups and you won't find them building as ROF setup, yet they get amazing trigger response. Go figure.
Mil-sim and semi mil-sim games all the way anyway.

Right, so because I have a high speed setup it means I'm obviously a twat and rip the shite out of everyone I see? I actually enjoy playing on single rather than the stale play you get when everyone goes nuts on full auto, when I do go full auto during play its never more than a burst of 5-10 rounds, if I get the drop on someone its always on single. But if somone cheats, yeah i'll gladly do a burst to their legs, chest or arse. I'd never shoot someone in a way that I wouldnt be shot myself (if i was cheating then yes i'd expect people to give me the good news with full auto). I've been riddled with systems i've built, it doesnt bother me in the slightest because we go airsofting to get shot believe it or not.

And I really enjoy building and running a stable high rof setup, so who are you to try and put me down for doing so. Just because I dont play by your rules doesn't mean i'm an idiot that cant control himself. And yes I do realise that when I say, "well my gearbox is throwing out around 40rps on a ssg setup", that it is infact 20 rounds in half a second and 10 rounds in a quarter of a second ( I can do maths me).

And yes, i've already predicted you'll ask, how can you do 5-10 rounds when your gun does 10 rounds in a quarter of a second? Son, its called trigger control.

Now, BE GONE TROLL.

[danhc]

Owned! High rof set ups are good when used correctly, for example in support weapons where their job is to suppress areas, however granted some kid running around with an m4 stubby and a box mag unloading 50 rounds at high speed into everyone he shoots is not on

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk

[thekonassure]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

@SilverEx mate I don`t know you but 40rps is nothing anyone ever used a moscart that`s over 192rounds forget per second that`s instant and some people get 6 shots lol


I do sometimes think that anything over 50rps should be used to simulate some kind of support weapon be it air or ground but as a bb in the wind has a mind of its own its nice to be able to put 3 to 7 bb`s out there real quick, also if your talking about a sprayer ruining your fun well I`ll assure you that 40rps drains a hi cap much faster then 15rps does so just keep your head down for 9 seconds then wait and catch them after they reload.

I use dsg, ssg, gbbr and 40mm load outs they all have there uses and there all fun to use the way you just spoke down to pretty much all high rof users was a bit harsh and personally I think that the fact that fast rof guns empty a hi cap in less time makes them a bit more realistic, of course if its a nice calm summer day then a gbbr is much better for realism, as for milsim how can you be sure people aren't sneaking hi caps ?

So lets say a nice m4 real steel can shoot 15 rps and has a 30rd mag so you have 2 seconds of shooting time on full auto, well then times the mag by 10 and you have a 300 round mag so some people may argue that we need a 150rps gun to make airsoft "realistic" when shooting a hi cap on full auto.

My last point is that I`m not a small guy and I guess I have good reflexes but I`m not particularly agile or fast yet I can see a bb coming and step out of it`s way. There`s some kid in japan that can draw a sword and cut a 6mm bb in half when it`s shot at 70ft.

People keep saying "one shot is all you need" and yes I agree that`s all you should need and close up on an unsuspecting target that is all you need but in the real world of skirmishing sometimes you need something to make people treat things with a bit more caution high fps (with in site limits) and high rof (but not drilling people) as well as pyros and maybe moscarts are the only things that seam to make people a bit more cautious.

and just for fun here`s 2 videos of Isao Machii cutting bb`s shot at him notice that his sword is not drawn until the gun is fired. I would like to note that anyone trying to do this at home should wear eye protection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ognCb4M84

So yeah you might want more then a springer when that guy`s around lol

[JOE90]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the answer. No I don't mean the first teeth for the pre engagement issue. I mean the unused teeth if you are short stroking, or using a DSG.

Thing is depending how fast your build is to the spring rate your using, you can potentially get pre engagement anywhere along the piston, not just on the first few like mentioned by you. Dsgs are so fast that you surely dont want to run an m90 other wise youll go through pistons like cars do petrol. Youll want a higher spring rate than normally used and then short stroke the piston and gear to lower your fps, whilst loosing weight from the piston and dsg.... surely it would be done for those reasons alone? Bearing in mind ive never setup a dsg but thought the principle would stand.

Edit- just realised dsg's actually carry less teeth before they release the piston lol so yeah i guess it will be to reduce weight lol

[thekonassure]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

Thing is depending how fast your build is to the spring rate your using, you can potentially get pre engagement anywhere along the piston, not just on the first few like mentioned by you. Dsgs are so fast that you surely dont want to run an m90 other wise youll go through pistons like cars do petrol. Youll want a higher spring rate than normally used and then short stroke the piston and gear to lower your fps, whilst loosing weight from the piston and dsg.... surely it would be done for those reasons alone? Bearing in mind ive never setup a dsg but thought the principle would stand.

Joe have you seen a dual sector gear ? they only come in 8 teeth and 9 teeth

If you ran a set with full teeth then you would need a some kind of delay switch to stop pre-engagement or a very very fast way to re-turn the piston there`s no aeg spring that could do it even an M220 could not move a piston that fast.

The next step is the TSG but it would have to be 4 teeth maybe 6 teeth max your barrel would be sub 200mm and it would run 1/3rd faster then a dsg so 40rps on a 7.4v would be a "slow" TSG then you could speed it up to 85rps maybe 90rps but I`m sure you`d run into other massive problems by then.

Now there are some experimental ways to re-design the inside of a gearbox some people have been working on replacing the spring with a magnet or having magnet system to push and pull the piston kind of like a rail gun but just moving the piston instead of the projectile

Anyway it was deemed that you would need a pretty high level of power to do this some people said it was unsafe and other people just said that battery life would be such an issue that no one would want it. I`m up for the idea of a mag that holds your bb`s and your battery power and needs a fast charge say every 300 rounds fired would would out a bit like a gas rifle.

It would also mean that you would no longer have gears or a motor so the guns could be made to feel more realistic and an ecu could be used to control fps and rof but at the moment there`s no enough demand for the system and civilian battery tech just aint up to the job.

So dsg is your best option that or a gun that uses an air vortex system or a multi spring, piston and barrel gun like a mini gun might be able to be pushed harder.

Anyway 2 sets of 9 teeth is the most you`ll get on a dsg so you remove the forward ones as you have no need for them and they extra weight slows the piston down and causes a heavier impact on your cylinder head.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...71-l-b9IcMTCGg

and there`s a link to a pretty picture of a dsg for anyone who has not seen one.

[happyal]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

I personally want to see ROF limits enforced at sites to stop this as it's just as dangerous as a hot gun if not more so.

I some what agree with you, I really don't like high ROF guns either, they are stupid, unrealistic and can ruin a skirmish if used in a unsportsmanlike manner. At my local field I did ask for a limit on them, and one of the reasons I’m building my DSG is to prove that point. I can see there is a possibility of this back firing on me, and I might start an arms race, we’ll see.

The other side of the coin is that they are technology challenging, usually built by more experienced players and can have troubles feeding. There are down sides to using them, especially if there is an ammo limit where you play. Also when you are playing a game based on honour and trust, then I don’t see a problem with some players having a high ROF gun as long as they are within the rules.

I’ll be honest, I’m not planning on using mine on semi at all. I will be building it to use on full auto, but at the same time I’m not going to hose anyone, because I wouldn’t like that to happen to me. I also don’t plan on using a high rof gun in ever game, I have quite a few airsoft guns and like to rotate which ones I use.

[JOE90]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

Konnasure, you quoted my whole post apart from the important edited bit at the end where i clearly understand what ive been missing all along, then you go off into a weird trance like typing fit and try to explain whacky things lol calm down man!!?

[SilverEx]

Re: Very high rps... What's the point?

Your points are flawed guys that replied to me other than happyal. This is my argument against high ROF. There is no real or convincing argument for having it. The cons outweigh the pros for allowing high ROF builds. If you have no intention of using it as a high ROF build, why would you build it? If it's to gain knowledge, yeh feel free to do it in your own home but then don't take it to a game. The only reason you would field a high ROF gun is to use it as one, admit that at least. Don't try and pretend it isn't, otherwise you wouldn't bloody build it and take it to a field. Fair enough if you never fielded it but you are all saying you do. This is why I disagree with your ethos completely and I think you're just hiding the truth.
I said I wouldn't want to play with you because I hate people who try to be a Marshall. You aren't there to call cheat, you are not there to tell other players what they have supposedly done wrong and you are not there to punish those who do cheat. This is the exact kind of mentality sites are referring to when they say "no cheat calling" and if you are a marshal, please tell me where cos I'd like to avoid that too! I'm not trying to be personal here but it's an issue that winds everyone up except for the niche amount of players that have a high ROF obsession. I really do hope it's a trend that goes away fast.

Oh and in response to the whole 300rds - 150rps thing. Just use your 15rps rifle with 30rd real cap, then you dont' need a high ROF build and everyones happy eh? Don't come from the realism angle when you're talking about hi caps.

Also please could you video this amazing trigger control repeated again and again and again with no breaks in filming?

High ROF is just unnecessary as I stated above. Too many cons, not enough pros and no really good reasons for needing it other than as somebody above put it "fear factor". Too easy to misuse and abuse


Happyal, I would say don't build it and just really berate your site owner(s) about it. Why stoop to somebody else's level if they are being unsporting? Report them to a Marshall and state your points to the site owner(s).