Is this legal

[Xsite]

Re: Is this legal

For those of you with a memory, and an understanding of what has gone on over the last 8 years, you will know I am the only person that has been present at every meeting that has taken place with ministers, home office officials and memebrs of the House of lords concerning the VCRA. So I know the VCRA inside out and have a better than average understanding of it.

For those of you that think this is about money, think again, it's about having skirmishers, regardless of their age with the proper kit for the job and not discriminating against the younger players, they are the games future and need to be looked after. This point has been made to the Home Office of numerous occasions, indeed the very first meeting concerning the VCR Act back in 2004 I asked why young people would not be allowed replicas, and the answer from the Home Office was "we are not banning young people from having them, we are merely adding parental control, parents will have to do the purchasing, so they know what is being purchased and agree with it". money is irrelevant, we would sell the parents 2 tones instead of Rif's it was an issue, but why should juniors be lumbered with hideous 2 tone guns and why should our general playing experience be damaged as a result.

Also on the money front and those of you getting hot under your collars claiming it will damage our sport, fighting the VCR Act personally cost me over £60,000.00 I am hardly going to put that personal investment at risk by doing something wrong.

So, to the law.

The VCR Act allows the purchase of airsoft guns "for the purposes of". Nowhere does it clarify who or what has to purchase, but in a seperate part of the act it prevents under 18 from purchasing. That's it, there is no more to it than that and the rest comes down to interpretation.

I have asked the Home office on several occasions where juniors stand, and there have been several answers from them, none definetive and as usual very guarded and non committal. I have also told them I am running a junior membership scheme, explained the criteria and how we sell and two different sets of minutes from 2 meetings give different answers, neither of them definative, one saying they believe we are right and the other again being non committal.

I have also sought independent council to look at the act, look at what we are doing and give a view at wether we are acting within the law or not and the answer was, with all the evidence I had, yes we were.

This all comes down to do we as a company believe we are acting within the law and would we stay out of jail if challenged. This is exactly the same question everybody should ask when they sell a Rif, not wishing to spend any time at her majesties pleasure I believe we are. If I thought we were in breach of the VCR Act, I wouldn't do it and I would hardly sit in a minuted meeting at the Home office and explain what i was doing if i wasn't confident of my actions.

Far too many people read much more into the VCR Act than is there. There are no restrictions on under 18's owning Rif's, there are no restrictions on under 18's using Rif's, but there is a ban on under 18's buying them. Then it comes down to can parents purchase for them and the VCR Act does not say anywhere they cannot. It states the Rif must be purchased "for the purposes of" it doesn't say in any way shape or form the user must be the purchaser.

Of course we have to protect ourselves as much as possible, so following legal advice our junior members must fulfil the Home Office agreed criteria to prove they are a skirmisher, we will only sell face to face with both the parent and junior member present and use that meeting to carefully explain to every junior and their parents exactly what they can and can't do with a RIF.

Our junior members also have nothing what so ever to do with UKARA, the UKARA scheme is for people 18 and over.

If anybody disagrees with this, show me the passages in law that makes it illegal as has been claimed by many. I don't believe they exist but if there is something that I have missed I am all ears.

Tim Wyborn
MD Xsite Airsoft Limited

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

sorry where does it say you can manufacture a rif? i missed that part also the parents don't meet the criteria that makes them eligible to purchase a rif having not having any of the defences mentioned so it is illegal for them to buy one of xsite or are you saying that if you don't have a defence but your kid likes to play airsoft it's perfectly acceptable for you to buy an airsoft gun?

Seriously have you actually read the legislation because it really doesn't appear that you have. Buyers don't have to meet any criteria to make them eligible to purchase a RIF. The defence is for the seller who is the party who'd otherwise be committing an offence. Furthermore the defence doesn't talk about who you are selling an imitation firearm to, it talks about hte purpose for which you are selling the imitation firearm. There is nothing in the way the law is worded that requires the sale to be made to a registered skirmisher in order to avail yourself of the defence. Nor does it say you have to be over 18 to use the defence in respect of manufacturing a RIF or changing an IF to a RIF.

Far too many people read much more into the VCR Act than is there.

To be honest I think the problem is too few people read anything into the VCRA. They rely on second hand information or statements from bodies such as UKARA rather than looking at hte actual legislation itself and end up taking the view that what they've heard or read is the law when that isn't necessarily the case.

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

the problem with someone postin on a forum about the vcra is "interpratation".
ive seen tons of arguments.for every right there seems to be a wrong and vice versa.
the real problem is....
a:the vcra says one thing.
b: then they add bits to it which arent included in the said act but must be sought out.
c:how the reader actually interprets what they are reading.
d:how sellers interpret the law on there sites ( such as ukara )to make the leyman understand roughly whats needed.

xcite are saying...as long as membership to a club with the correct insurance is held,even if a minor,its ok to sell as long as the over 18 non member buys the rif.
i interpret that as wrong from the info ive read thats available on the net.
but i guess its whether the seller can legally cover themselves......i personally think its skimming(if not over) the edge of the rules we obey to keep our hobby safe.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

Look at it this way:
The site has the appropriate 3rd party insurance which covers activities at the site (the "permitted activities).
Everyone playing at the site is covered by that insurance, no matter what their age (though I would assume there is a minimum age, but it would be below 18).
The regulation (NOT the VCRA) states that the RIFs can be provided for use in the "permitted activies", therefore anyone playing at the site is entitled to a defence under section 36 of the VCRA. Section 36 does NOT have the age prohibition, so don't dispute this statement on those grounds.

However, an under18 can't buy or be sold an IF.
But, an over18 CAN buy a RIF if it is for the purpose of use in "permitted activities". There is NOTHING in the VCRA or the RIF regulation which states that the person buying the RIF has to be the one using it for the "permitted activities", only that the RIF is supplied for that purpose.

Therefore, it COULD be interpreted to mean that a parent could legally buy a RIF for their child to use at an insured site. Whether or not that parent plays themselves is irrelavent to the way the laws are written.

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

the problem with someone postin on a forum about the vcra is "interpratation".
ive seen tons of arguments.for every right there seems to be a wrong and vice versa.
the real problem is....
a:the vcra says one thing.
b: then they add bits to it which arent included in the said act but must be sought out.
c:how the reader actually interprets what they are reading.
d:how sellers interpret the law on there sites ( such as ukara )to make the leyman understand roughly whats needed.

xcite are saying...as long as membership to a club with the correct insurance is held,even if a minor,its ok to sell as long as the over 18 non member buys the rif.
i interpret that as wrong from the info ive read thats available on the net.
but i guess its whether the seller can legally cover themselves......i personally think its skimming(if not over) the edge of the rules we obey to keep our hobby safe.

Read the actual legislation, it's easy to find online including the additional statutory instruments. It only takes a cursory look to realise that what UKARA has set out as the required defence comes down to what they presumably think is the easiest/best way for retailers to be able to demonstrate they fall within the actual defence set out in the law.

Therefore, it COULD be interpreted to mean that a parent could legally buy a RIF for their child to use at an insured site. Whether or not that parent plays themselves is irrelavent to the way the laws are written.

To be honest I think it has to be interpreted in that fashion otherwise it makes the defence unworkable for retailers buying RIFs from wholesalers or other retailers based in the UK or importing them from overseas or for airsoft sites buying RIFs to use as hire weapons.

[Boo-Sabum Ben]

Do we really need a UKARA section. I mean... really?

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

What I find most amusing about this argument is that it could be the end of 2-tones that so many have been calling for, but now it comes to it, everyone's up in arms about it.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

What I find most amusing about this argument is that it could be the end of 2-tones that so many have been calling for, but now it comes to it, everyone's up in arms about it.

Only the end of two tones for younger players. I can't see how things would return to the way they were pre 2004.

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

so basically,by my understanding,its completley up to a shop owner,whether they want to sell to soemone with just membership,or must be on ukara. and both ways are completley legal......is this correct?

[Xsite]

Re: Is this legal

Something I missed out from my post above.

I fought the VCR Act for 2 years as I saw it as an injustice. That injustice was to all airsoft skirmishers, both young and old.

As the act progressed it was plain to see that youngsters would be impacted more than any other and those that act responsibly (the vast majority) were paying heavily for the actions of a few that are irresponsible. This is fundamentally unfair to those sensible youngsters and all the way through discussions about the VCR Act I brought up the plight of young players when others were not interested in them. I have all the Home Office meeting minutes, plus my notes from all the meetings to back this up.

We took a decision as a company to embrace younger players and support them and fundamentally couldn't see the difference between a keen airsoft junior that had a parent that skirmished and one that didn't. There is no difference so why wouldn't we do what we could to support young players without parents that skirmish. Nobody made us do it, but we felt we had a duty to do everything we could to give everybody the same opportunities and not saddle some with the abominations on the field that are 2 tones. After researched thoroughly the consequences of a junior membership scheme we introduced it once we were confident it would stand legal scrutiny.

Tim Wyborn
MD Xsite Airsoft Limited

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

so basically,by my understanding,its completley up to a shop owner,whether they want to sell to soemone with just membership,or must be on ukara. and both ways are completley legal......is this correct?

Yes it is.

[Bradley]

Re: Is this legal

There are so many loop holes in the UKARA system that I am not sure anybody knows EXACTLY what can and can't be done, as can be seen by reading the whole of this thread.

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

@xcite

now things have been made clearer i would like to apologise for saying it was about the money.


so why dont all other shops do it this way,membership = a sale,regardless of ukara.
i know that ukara claim there database is for the government to see how popular airsoft is,but they could still have a database of members ( which when thinking about it) could have more names on it that the ukara database.

ahh well,never been too good with politics.

[Sam-Beta]

Re: Is this legal

Something I missed out from my post above.

I fought the VCR Act for 2 years as I saw it as an injustice. That injustice was to all airsoft skirmishers, both young and old.

As the act progressed it was plain to see that youngsters would be impacted more than any other and those that act responsibly (the vast majority) were paying heavily for the actions of a few that are irresponsible. This is fundamentally unfair to those sensible youngsters and all the way through discussions about the VCR Act I brought up the plight of young players when others were not interested in them. I have all the Home Office meeting minutes, plus my notes from all the meetings to back this up.

We took a decision as a company to embrace younger players and support them and fundamentally couldn't see the difference between a keen airsoft junior that had a parent that skirmished and one that didn't. There is no difference so why wouldn't we do what we could to support young players without parents that skirmish. Nobody made us do it, but we felt we had a duty to do everything we could to give everybody the same opportunities and not saddle some with the abominations on the field that are 2 tones. After researched thoroughly the consequences of a junior membership scheme we introduced it once we were confident it would stand legal scrutiny.

Tim Wyborn
MD Xsite Airsoft Limited

I have a two tone KP8 bought before I became VCRA compliant. Thanks for that. I used to skirmish pre 2004 up to 06 but handed in my gear due to the actions of irresponsible people and took a break away from it. I think you can probably see why people are worried, that if you're selling the parents of registered junior members that themselves aren't skirmishers or have a defense for the purchase of a RIF why we're concerned. Those irresponsible few a years back weren't just kids. I'm not being a dick here I just think things are a little skewed when it comes down to the purchase of RIFS. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the parents are going to "gift" the RIF to their child, the purchase of the RIF would be made by an adult irrelevant as to whether or not they are a skirmisher, re-enactor etc.

It just seems a bit underhand at least from my perspective.

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

I think you can probably see why people are worried, that if you're selling the parents of registered junior members that themselves aren't skirmishers or have a defense for the purchase of a RIF why we're concerned.

You don't need a defence to purchase a RIF. And why should you be any more concerned about parents who don't enjoy skirmishing buying a RIF for their child who does enjoy it than you are about parents who enjoy skirmishing buying a gun for their child?