KWA ERG Series

[PureSilver]

Re: KWA ERG Series

Having had a look at the KWA's ultra-proprietary gearbox and the terrible lack of aftermarket support their other proprietary system (the LM4) 'enjoys' I don't think I'll be selling my Recoil Shock anytime soon either. Although harder recoil is brilliant it isn't the be-all-and-end-all - and if it is, I have a GBBR for that, too...

[TriggerHappy]

Re: KWA ERG Series

The ERG's are still too expensive at £400, only £80 cheaper than a brand new marui sopmod. I think they should of sold them at a more competitive price at around the £300 mark. I'd rather take a marui sopmod over a KWA ERG for the price

So why would you go for the TM if the KWA is cheaper, can use magazines that aren't as expensive as their weight in gold without buying an adapter, has a stronger recoil, and is made of better or at worst the same level materials?

This thread has been full of "I'm going to get a TM because its a TM" kind of thinking. doesn't really fly with me.

[Thunderfury]

Re: KWA ERG Series

So why would you go for the TM if the KWA is cheaper

KWA internals are gash. These ERG's, i would hope would have better than their usual internals but i'm not holding out much hope for them.

[dave38x]

Re: KWA ERG Series

KWA ERG internals or KWA internals in general?

6 team mates have KWA Defender M4s, and they are all fantastic.

KWA gas pistols (bar the hop unit) are very well made.

[TriggerHappy]

Re: KWA ERG Series

KWA internals are gash.

[Citation Needed]

[silasloki]

Re: KWA ERG Series

I agree with the sentiment that KWA does have a terrible reputation for service parts.....TERRIBLE.....this is, for me, a reason to avoid this gun. £80 saving is just too small a consolation when your gat is sitting in the corner with no hope of repair....

I think it's also interesting to see how well priced TM's appear to be if, all things considered, their closest product rival can only achieve an £80 saving. The extra recoil is perhaps the ONLY plus this ERG has over the TM, but that's it. I don't see the ability to use standard mags with the ERG as a selling point, but that's just my opinion.

[PureSilver]

Re: KWA ERG Series

So why would you go for the TM if the KWA is cheaper, can use magazines that aren't as expensive as their weight in gold without buying an adapter, has a stronger recoil, and is made of better or at worst the same level materials?

60rd midcaps? I mean, yes, technically, that is 'a midcap' but since you'll need twice as many as a Recoil Shock would (120rd PMAGs, remember) I think the savings are somewhat lessened. Incidentally, another UK retailer is selling TM SOPMOD magazines for £20, PTS PMAGs for the SOPMOD for £24, and estimating ERG magazines at £25-30. You'll notice that's more money for less capacity. Saying "Oh, well I can use non-OEM magazines!" is ignoring the fact that first, so can the Recoil Shocks, and second, the bolt lock doesn't work if you do that. Which means you lose a large part of the functionality of the rifle.

Here are some other reasons to pick a Recoil Shock:

1. The Recoil Shocks' excellent accuracy.
2. The Recoil Shocks' proven track record of reliability.
3. The broad range of upgrades available for the Recoil Shocks. In fact, we could invert this to reference the absolutely nonexistent aftermarket support for recent KWA releases; no upgrades, no spares, nothing.
4. The hideous KWA trademarks, which owing to the above lack of support, it will be extremely difficult to replace with anything approaching realistic ones.
5. The broader range of Recoil Shock rifles available.
6. Not buying a rifle from KWA, a company haemorrhaging staff, licenses and money that's suffering something of a reputational crisis at present. That's a polite way of saying that a lot of other people in the airsoft industry don't want anything to do with KWA at the moment owing to some questionable management decisions.

Additionally, if we're talking AR-15s, there are upgrades for the Recoil Shocks that increase the recoil, negating the ERG's (so far unproven) only actual advantage - if an advantage it is, given that as in the Recoil Shocks the recoil impulse is still in the wrong direction. There's a reason TM enjoys a near flawless reputation amongst airsofters, and KWA doesn't, y'know.

[Caldymoose]

Re: KWA ERG Series

Not forgetting though, that this rifle is brand new on the scene, thats not to say there won't be spares or aftermarket parts coming. You cant expect a new product to launch and have the entire range of aftermarket parts and spares that the TM does, its taken years for them to come out!

[TriggerHappy]

Re: KWA ERG Series

I'm just trying to play devil's advocate a little bit!

3 of the reasons you've listed are based on the fact that the TM has been out for a while, so of course you would expect 3rd party support.

The 'excellent accuracy' is debatable, its nothing special.

KWA trademarks? It only has Magpul PTS ones IFAK, and all I can find in image search is what look like pretty good deeply moulded ones, too boot.

KWA's licensing and staff issues are largely based on complete hearsay, but I will take that back if you can actually find a source.

[PureSilver]

Re: KWA ERG Series

I'm just trying to play devil's advocate a little bit!

No - I completely agree! I would LOVE for the ERG to be good, since reliability, recoil and realism are probably the most important things to me in airsoft. But I'm not convinced that the ERG is even as good as, let alone better than, the TM at the moment.

Not forgetting though, that this rifle is brand new on the scene, thats not to say there won't be spares or aftermarket parts coming. You cant expect a new product to launch and have the entire range of aftermarket parts and spares that the TM does, its taken years for them to come out!

3 of the reasons you've listed are based on the fact that the TM has been out for a while, so of course you would expect 3rd party support.

The safe bet, then, would be not to buy the weapon until it's been out for a while and the aftermarket support's picked up - but the problem is, with KWA's offerings, it never picks up. The LM4's been out for a while too - nothing. Early adopters are stuck with a three-piece upper receiver, poor compatibility with RS and trademarks that look like this. The Kriss has been out for even longer - virtually nothing, and KWA aren't even allowed to sell it any more. That's sad, because by all accounts the LM4 is an impressively reliable gun, and the Vector is unusual and cool too. But there's just no aftermarket support for KWA's proprietary weapons - not even from KWA, who really ought to be picking up the slack.

The 'excellent accuracy' is debatable, its nothing special.

That's evidently a matter of opinion; I think the general consensus is that Recoil Shocks are extremely accurate out of the box, much more so than many other competitors.

KWA trademarks? It only has Magpul PTS ones IFAK, and all I can find in image search is what look like pretty good deeply moulded ones, too boot.

The only ERG released so far is plastered with MagPul and PTS trademarks (since PTS and MagPul are talking about ending their relationship, I'm not sure how that's continuing) and KWA's other OEM weapons (see the LM4 linked above) are plastered with their dreadful OEM trademarks. Since MagPul don't sell lower receivers, the one ERG released isn't really that realistic, and the ones we can expect to see in the future are unlikely to be accurate either. Even worse, and owing to the aforementioned lack of support, it will be extremely difficult to replace them with anything approaching realistic ones. If you're interested in replicating a particular rifle - even a popular one, like a Colt M4 variant - you're basically screwed.

KWA's licensing and staff issues are largely based on complete hearsay, but I will take that back if you can actually find a source.

Er - it's a long way from hearsay. KWA lost the license to make any and all HK replicas. Kriss cancelled their agreement with KWA; the upshot between those lines is that KWA are no longer allowed to make Kriss replicas. Half of KWA's US staff quit, some of them jumping ship to Kriss at the same time, which I think demonstrates something about the depth of feeling involved. Here's Allen, KWA's former US Product Marketing Manager, talking about how because of an NDA he can't talk about it too much:

NDA... yes and no. But I had to make a moral decision. therefore I [went] to Kriss. [...] Nope... KWA is done. They can no longer produce and distribute the GBB Vector. Nor the AEG version that's in the work since last year. I know.... I was there.

When a KWA rep chimes in to re-arrange some of the claims, all he gets in return is complaints about KWA's horrible parts support. I think we're well past hearsay.

[Caldymoose]

Re: KWA ERG Series

Damn....can't really fault that for a response....


Also, I have a LM4, I love it! I even like the trades a bit....

[BigAl]

Re: KWA ERG Series

I know this is a radical thought for airsoft, but why don't we actually wait n see what the feckin thing is like before we decide.

[PureSilver]

Re: KWA ERG Series

Also, I have a LM4, I love it! I even like the trades a bit....

Not even a mother could love those trades. I'm thinking about getting an LM4 second-hand from all the disappointed people who bought them hoping the MEGA ARMS-traded receivers would come out eventually, and getting it engraved myself with standard Colt trades. The ten years or so of progress since the release of the WA system does show somewhat, I'm told.

[Saltyyy]

Re: KWA ERG Series

I know this is a radical thought for airsoft, but why don't we actually wait n see what the feckin thing is like before we decide.

Being probably the only person in this who has fired it in this thread, some people's responses amaze me.
Seriously, when are people going to realise TM are actually getting out done by another company? People seem to un-wanting to accept that other companies are doing a good job.
Are all these people seriously chained onto TM's little finger? :S

First impressions are awesome guys, if you're not going to give it a chance, then lord help us all!

[silasloki]

Re: KWA ERG Series

Being probably the only person in this who has fired it in this thread, some people's responses amaze me.
Seriously, when are people going to realise TM are actually getting out done by another company? People seem to un-wanting to accept that other companies are doing a good job.
Are all these people seriously chained onto TM's little finger? :S

First impressions are awesome guys, if you're not going to give it a chance, then lord help us all!

I personally own two lovely KWA Kris's Vectors and recently bought (now traded) a lovely MP9. You think the parts and supply issue is a joke? Trust me, first hand experience speaking here.

I totally believe you when you state it's a lovely gun. I can assure you, I don't own a single TM product (yet), and I don't believe it would take much effort to build a more reliable, harder recoiling, more accurate and an all round nicer gun than a TM product......but, all guns fail (eventually), and based on past and present experience, KWA seem to give everyone outside the USA the middle digit when it comes to customer care and spares.

The ONE good thing to emerge from the ERG, competition and an indication of trend. I thought the emergence of products like the DTW, Airo Arms and A&K vapourware would signal companies like G&P, ICS et al. to start considering retiring the venerable AEG for a trending TW type platform......now, there's hope this trending will come from a proliferation of recoil rifles.

One final note about parts supply, this statement about TM being older and therefore (obviously) having better after market support.....consider this, how well are older KWA products supported with parts?......given past history, can you really see this being any differrent.?