Is this legal

[Orion1]

Re: Is this legal

So now we can make up our own laws? So I can say that stealing is now legal and that I now own all the stock in Zero One.

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

After speaking to 2 of my friends who are both police officers, (one of whom is joining the ARU). Both have agreed that what is happening at Xsite IS illegal. As the buyer of a RIF must be a registered skirmisher, (if the parent isn't registered, they shouldn't be buying), and this junior membership is just a money making con by the site in question.

Perhaps you'd like to go back to them and ask where the law says anything about the need for the buyer to be a registered skirmisher? Or how they think it's possible for companies running sites or shops to obtain the guns they sell or hire when they're not registered skirmishers?

So now we can make up our own laws? So I can say that stealing is now legal and that I now own all the stock in Zero One.

Who's making up laws?

[V.A.K]

Re: Is this legal

Could I just ask also, if someone were to possess junior membership, as there is no age limit on owning and manufacturing an RIF, just purchasing one, surely said under 18 would be fine to simply be gifted an IF by their parent/guardian and then just replace or spray any two tone parts? That way no law's have been broken at all?

there junior membership doesn't mean s*** it is against the law to manufacture a rif if they do not posses a defence which they do not.

[Rednaxelaa]

Re: Is this legal

under the ukara laws you dont have to be a skirmisher but you must have a valid defence to buy or own a RIF, be it replica toy gun/ deac/ or whatever, without a defense you can buy a 2tone, BUT if you then spray this yourself, still without defense in doing so, you are creating a rif, which is also illegal, without defence, quite simply they sound like they thought they found a loop hole, but unfortunately ( as many have pointed out ) the adults are only allowed to buy 2tone and gift to -18, UNLESS they are registered under ukara or have their vaild defence ( sorry for repeating this defence BUT thats where the loop holes finish) whereupon they can buy and gift the rif as long as no payment or gifts are given in return.

[V.A.K]

Re: Is this legal

Perhaps you'd like to go back to them and ask where the law says anything about the need for the buyer to be a registered skirmisher? Or how they think it's possible for companies running sites or shops to obtain the guns they sell or hire when they're not registered skirmishers?



Who's making up laws?

36Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms(1)A person is guilty of an offence if—(a)he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;(b)he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;(c)he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or(d)he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.(2)Subsection (1) has effect subject to the defences in section 37.(3)The Secretary of State may by regulations—(a)provide for exceptions and exemptions from the offence under subsection (1); and(b)provide for it to be a defence in proceedings for such an offence to show the matters specified or described in the regulations.
taken directly from the vcra read the bits about the buyer having to have a defence, a defence can be in the form of a site membership to a site with third party liability insurance, a ukara number, being a re-enactor or in the film industry

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

None of you actually READ what I quoted from the actual LEGAL documents, did you?
The RIF regulations are written in such a way that could reasonably be interpreted to mean that the case being discussed IS LEGAL.

They are selling the RIF FACE-TO-FACE to the parent for the purpose of it being used in "permitted activities".

Yes, this could blow the whole 2-tone thing out of the water, but even though it isn't what was intended, that IS the way the LAW is written.

WRT the convo with the police officers: What spin did you put on it?
I can pretty much guarantee that someone on the other side of the argument to you could get the opposite answer. Especially if they ask a lawyer, rather than a police officer.

[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

under the ukara laws

There is no UKARA law. End of.

taken directly from the vcra read the bits about the buyer having to have a defence, a defence can be in the form of a site membership to a site with third party liability insurance, a ukara number, being a re-enactor or in the film industry

I'm pretty sure the defences in section 37 include "by way of trade", meaning for business purposes.

[forei]

Re: Is this legal

bottom line = money
looks like xsite are happy to skim the edge of the law and risk the sport hoping thier loophole will bring in more money.
i might be wrong,but thats the way i read into it.

mate you are wrong, personal experience is telling me that xsite wouldn't sell me anything if I didn't have ukara. Has anyone actually have any personal experience with them , not many from what I can see.

[forei]

Re: Is this legal

After speaking to 2 of my friends who are both police officers, (one of whom is joining the ARU). Both have agreed that what is happening at Xsite IS illegal. As the buyer of a RIF must be a registered skirmisher, (if the parent isn't registered, they shouldn't be buying), and this junior membership is just a money making con by the site in question.

As both were off duty at the time of me asking, they've advised anyone with any concerns to contact their local police station and report the matter accordingly.

After very great personal experience with a lot of so called police officers I can tell you I am deeply disappointed by them and changed my opinion about the lot, so unless your friends are experts on said subject their opinion as they were off duty is worth nothing.

[V.A.K]

Re: Is this legal

mate you are wrong, personal experience is telling me that xsite wouldn't sell me anything if I didn't have ukara. Has anyone actually have any personal experience with them , not many from what I can see.

so what they're written is a lie then they haven't been selling guns to people who's kids are skirmishers but they aren't ?

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

there junior membership doesn't mean s*** it is against the law to manufacture a rif if they do not posses a defence which they do not.

The defence for the manufacture of a RIF or the changing of an IF to a RIF is no different for someone under 18 as it is for someone over 18. If you can demonstrate it's been done for the purpose set out in the defence then you can manufacture or convert an IF to a RIF even if you are under 18.

under the ukara laws you dont have to be a skirmisher but you must have a valid defence to buy or own a RIF, be it replica toy gun/ deac/ or whatever, without a defense you can buy a 2tone, BUT if you then spray this yourself, still without defense in doing so, you are creating a rif, which is also illegal, without defence, quite simply they sound like they thought they found a loop hole, but unfortunately ( as many have pointed out ) the adults are only allowed to buy 2tone and gift to -18, UNLESS they are registered under ukara or have their vaild defence ( sorry for repeating this defence BUT thats where the loop holes finish) whereupon they can buy and gift the rif as long as no payment or gifts are given in return.

There's no such thing as "the ukara laws". You don't need a valid defence to buy or own a RIF, you need a valid defence to sell a RIF. And the defence as set out in the VCRA doesn't say anything about needing to be a registered skirmisher.

36Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms(1)A person is guilty of an offence if—(a)he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;(b)he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;(c)he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or(d)he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.(2)Subsection (1) has effect subject to the defences in section 37.(3)The Secretary of State may by regulations—(a)provide for exceptions and exemptions from the offence under subsection (1); and(b)provide for it to be a defence in proceedings for such an offence to show the matters specified or described in the regulations.
taken directly from the vcra read the bits about the buyer having to have a defence, a defence can be in the form of a site membership to a site with third party liability insurance, a ukara number, being a re-enactor or in the film industry

Perhaps you'd like to point out where you think that says anything about the buyer needing a defence? Or where the law says anything about the defence requiring a site membership or ukara number?

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

but what about selling a rif to somone without a defence who is buying for a minor who also in legal interpretations doesnt have a defence.
buying them an "if" is fine and giving it as a gift.but how can a non ukara member buy a "rif" to pass on as a gift even if its for somoene with site membership but is too yooung to be on ukara,arent they then in fact selling that rif to a non ukara member for a non ukara member.
problem with the vcra is its in solicitor talk............

not arguing,just want to understand in simple terms



edit
aaahhhhh,just read the above post,makes it a bit simpler,but then how can a shop sell a rif to a non defence member for a gift for an underage non defence member

[SL1CHAOS]

Re: Is this legal

Let me sum something up regarding junior site membership.


What xsite is doing is wrong I believe.

The parent is not a skirmisher so they are technically selling a RIF to the parent for the parent to gift the rif to the under 18.

Officially they are selling a RIF to someone who doesn't satisfy the defense.

However, junior site membership isn't illegal.

Any junior site member has the right to manufacture a RIF.

This could consist of the parent gifting them a two tone and then spraying the RIF with krylon or replacing the two tone parts with realistic ones.

Hope's this helps and sending an email to UKARA is useless.

Phone trading standards.

I have skype credit, why don't we all get in a call and we assign one person to speak while we all listen in

Hopes this helps.

skype name: sl1chaos

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

I'm pretty sure the defences in section 37 include "by way of trade", meaning for business purposes.

It includes a defence against the offence of bringing a realistic imitation firearm or causing one to be brought into Great Britain where it was done in the course of carrying on any trade or business and was for the purpose of making the imitation firearm in question available to be modified in a way which would result in its ceasing to be a realistic imitation firearm. Don't think that would really apply to the airsoft industry.

aaahhhhh,just read the above post,makes it a bit simpler,but then how can a shop sell a rif to a non defence member for a gift for an underage non defence member

The law doesn't work in terms of buyers needing a defence. The seller needs the defence and the way it's written is actually more broad than the interpretation given by UKARA. The issue with selling to under 18s isn't that they can't satisfy the defence, it's that there's a further offence that makes it illegal for them to sell to an under 18.

The parent is not a skirmisher so they are technically selling a RIF to the parent for the parent to gift the rif to the under 18.

Officially they are selling a RIF to someone who doesn't satisfy the defense.

Again, buyers don't satisfy anything. Sellers have to satisfy the defence and there's nothing in the defence which says the sale has to be made to a registered skirmisher. The defence is all about the purpose for which the sale was made, not who the sale was made to. If you can demonstrate that the sale was made for the purpose set out in the defence then it shouldn't make a difference whether the buyer was a registered skirmisher or not.

[V.A.K]

Re: Is this legal

The defence for the manufacture of a RIF or the changing of an IF to a RIF is no different for someone under 18 as it is for someone over 18. If you can demonstrate it's been done for the purpose set out in the defence then you can manufacture or convert an IF to a RIF even if you are under 18.



There's no such thing as "the ukara laws". You don't need a valid defence to buy or own a RIF, you need a valid defence to sell a RIF. And the defence as set out in the VCRA doesn't say anything about needing to be a registered skirmisher.



Perhaps you'd like to point out where you think that says anything about the buyer needing a defence? Or where the law says anything about the defence requiring a site membership or ukara number?

sorry where does it say you can manufacture a rif? i missed that part also the parents don't meet the criteria that makes them eligible to purchase a rif having not having any of the defences mentioned so it is illegal for them to buy one of xsite or are you saying that if you don't have a defence but your kid likes to play airsoft it's perfectly acceptable for you to buy an airsoft gun?